Perchance

I keep hearing the "fact" that nine million witches died during the witch-hunts quoted at me. However, I have also heard that this figure is extremely suspect, coming as it does from the writings of Margaret Murray (whose scholarship is VERY suspect), and that the number was much closer to about 40,000. Does anyone have any hard statistics on this?

It seems to be a dogma of some Pagans I've talked to on the Net; you're not allowed to question that nine million witches were burned, any more than you're allowed to question Christians about Jesus's moral character. Oh, and all of them were Wiccan . Recently, I'm running into it in the context of a graduate class in Shakespeare, where one other grad student, in interpreting Macbeth, wants to make the case that nine million witches were burned because they were thought to be demons. (Oh, and the witches in the play are transvestite succubi. Don't ask).

Another reason I'd like to know is that I think it would be very sad if Paganism, which is probably the religion I'd be if I was a religion, started clinging to dogma and screaming at any attempts to investigate them.

-Perchance.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

brighid

I have heard many different numbers and that one is certainly a popular one. I am not sure if any one knows how many people accused of being witches was actually murdered. It’s probably in the tens of thousands. I am skeptical of the 9 million number because I have seen no strong evidence to support that. Unfortunately, it seems there is no denomination or lack of denomination that prevents nutty, whack jobs from getting in and expressing their view points – at least those are the ones who get all the media attention. Let me see what I can find … that’s if this day is nothing like last week … utterly time consuming and a pain in the arse!

Brighid

brighid

"The victims of these trials died one by one. I sincerely believe that each of these deaths was a great tragedy. To the people that died it makes little difference whether millions were killed or only thousands. Yet, I believe it is important to report history as accurately as is possible in such affairs. The exaggeration of atrocities tends to play into the hands of those who would deny the horror of such events. Because this information was not enough for me, I decided to find out what I could for myself. My correspondent's remark that this history is poorly documented seems to be accurate as far as I can find. Nevertheless, I have decided to see what I can find. As I am not a historian my goal is to find out from historians what they believe to be accurate rather than doing the necessary historical research myself. This investigation by its very nature is not exhaustive and should be viewed as a report of what I have found out rather than a thesis attempting to prove how many victims there actually were...

Because I have yet to see any methodology for the 9 million, I cannot believe these figures. I am willing to consider such a figure if I can find out how and why someone believes it to be true. I invite correspondance in this regard. I am especially interested in estimates that cannot be traced back to Hughes. In the mean time let's look at the other sources. These sources suggest a figure between 60,000 [6] and 300,000 [2] deaths in all of Europe due to the witch hunts. History is an evolving field; as new evidence comes to light and models change, so by necessity do the estimates of such tragedies. At the moment, I must say that I am persuaded by Barstow. "


<a href="http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml</a>

muon

You might check in "Triumph of the Moon", by Ronald Hutton. I have a vague memory that he analyzed these claims. The numbers he came up with were considerably lower than millions, certainly.

Amen-Moses

Isn't one enough?

Amen-Moses

gsx1138

Hey!! I'm Wiccan don't roll your eyes!!
Seriously though, I highly doubt that the death toll is in the millions. I think the moral of the event is more important than the actual number. However, some Wiccans feel the need to carry some kind of holocaust trip with them. My take is that allot of people died because of christianity and they still do.
I also think a lot of Wiccans hold onto that outrages number because of current Christians who believe their religion is without guilt and somehow pure. This level of ignorance on the christians part often gives way to a uninformed semi enlightened response from the Wiccan.
I also hear Christians claiming religous persecution in this country when they don't get their way. <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> This tends to frustrate me even more considering I can jpractically throw a rock in any direction and hit a christian church.

Perchance

Thank you for taking the time to research that, Brighid! I'm glad to have a solid source to look at. I've also sent the link to my fellow graduate student; she e-mailed me wanting to know how I dared not think the number was in the millions .

Oser: Thank you for the suggestion. I've seen "Triumph of the Moon" recommended a few times, but never checked it out. I think I will.

Of course, but in this case the numbers are (it seems) being distorted for political reasons, which makes me sick. These people DIED, and since the Wiccans (and sometimes other Pagans) claiming the numbers can hardly go back in time and do anything about it, it strikes me as heartless and extremely politically motivated for them to make up these numbers and start waving them around.

I don't think Wicca existed then, which means that the dead weren't Wiccan, and it's silly and disrespectful to claim they were. Besides, not all the reasons for the burnings were religious. Some of the women were widows with property that the people who accused them coveted. Others were the church seeing enemies in every shadow. It's not impossible that some pagans were destroyed, but they WEREN'T Wiccan, and they weren't all Pagans.

I think one of the ideas from <a href="http://www.whywiccanssuck.com" target="_blank">www.whywiccansssuck.com</a> is very appropriate: that a lot of these people considered themselves Christian, and that calling them Pagan by force just to swell the idea of "Wiccan persecutions" is spitting on their graves and associating them with a religion they would have found objectionable.

Gsx1138:

I didn't mean to imply that all Wiccans do this. But the ones who do PISS ME OFF. There's a lot I like about Pagan theism, but in other ways it can be as irrational and backward as Christian theism. "When you cannot remember, invent," revisionist history that always favors Paganism, and the idea that "everything-was-perfect-until-Christianity-came-along" are three of those dangerous concepts.

And I agree: I don't think that Christian persecution is very common in the United States at all.

-Perchance.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

gsx1138

I believe that if Christianity had not become "organized" it would not be as bad as it was and is now. I agree with you in that Wicca does have some irrational beliefs but it allows you room to discard that which does not seem right for you unlike christianity which forces you to accept certain beliefs or else.
You are correct in that no Wiccans were killed during the "Burning Times" since it is a recent incarnation. However, Wiccans identify themselves as a derivitive of Paganism thus they consider those Pagans who were killed as part of their ancestry. Some like to embelish this point to taking the witch burnings personally ( I know, I used to be one of them) but I suspect this is more for some sort of psychological justification at disliking Christianity.
I don't need ancient history to dislike Christianity because there is plenty of it in the present day that disgusts me. I feel your pain though, talking to any type of militant religous person is an effort in frustration. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Attila722

While it is impossible to prove or disprove the 9 million number logic thought should make it clear that no where near that number of people were ever burned at the stake as witches or otherwise. I tend to believe that the 40,000 number would be more in line and the real number might even be less than that.

brighid

Atilla,

Many more Jews perished in the Holocaust then witches burned throughout the centuries. This does not make one worse then the other, but I think it is wrong to exaggerate the numbers as well. It is more responsible to go with the known data and make reasonable estimations from there. Why should it matter if 9,000 witches were killed or 9 million? In fact most of those people weren't "witches" they were simply accussed of some pretty ridiculous stuff and had to prove otherwise. Often times the ritual to absolve oneself of any witchcraft ties was very brutal and life ending.

Perchance,

You are welcome! I have researched this subject in the past especially during my early days of deconversion from Catholicism and my journey into Paganism. I see the nine million number alot. I remember my emotional response, especially during the times when I was most disheartened with the Church and the ruling male class in general. Then to get my hands on the Malleus Maleficarum ... well my indignation and rage ran deep.

I understand the emotional defense of the number and it can be difficult to find much to the contrary.

The burning to death, torture or other means of murder of another human being for believing or worshipping contrary to any belief is morally wrong. It seems more egregious when SO many people lost their lives, but in reality that is not the case. If the Church had the ability the Nazi's did or even modern day technology during the "Burning Times" I have little doubt the numbers would be in the 10's of millions.

That it one reason why it is ever important to safeguard our freedoms, especially our right to pursue any religion or none at all and to be able to speak freely and most specifically to dissent.

Brighid