Jobar

Personally, I have always regarded faith as primary with evidence purely as secondary back up.

Um, I trust that you have read the comment in the Bible about having faith as big as a mustard seed? If that sort of faith was real, we'd have abundant and daily evidence of it.

But it's not. And that, I'd say, is proof enough that our faith is not a factor in testing for truth, and reality.

There's another problem, for you- what about *other people's* faith? You do realize that mighty few people (I would even go so far as to say none) have faith in exactly the same God you do, don't you? (Or do you think that you and, oh, Jerry Falwell, pray to the same God?)

Conchobar

Greetings everyone,

Since I have been on the Sec. Web I have noticed that sceptics/agnostics/atheists have always cried out for evidence re the existence of a deity. Atheists pride themselves with their objectivity and willingness to believe if the evidence was produced.

It is a bit disingenuous on our part, since we all know that there is no evidence. If there ever had been any legitimate evidence for god, the entire population of the Earth would be theists. There is none. We know it. The theists know it. The smarter Theist evades this by claiming that God exists outside of time and space, and is immeasurable, invisible, inaudible, and intangible so that he cannot be tested nor can he leave any evidence. That pretty much stiffles the argument. We can only defeat the theist if the theist is Islamo-Christian because that god is defined in human terms and claims (literally) to have made the Earth by magic 6000 years ago. That is simple to debunk. One cannot debunk a generic, undefinable, untestable god.

A number of Christians have come on to the Web making statements like 'no matter what evidence was produced, you woul never believe' I have always considered such statements to be crass and the signs of a Christian apologetic 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' for anti-atheistic arguments.

Of course, they know that we will demand evidence that is either clearly mythical (the Bible) or pseudoscience Creationism that both easily debunked.

However, I have given the matter further thought and the question does come to my mind what evidence would actually convince an atheist? I have great difficulty coming up with an answer.

If God gave a specific message mentally or audibly to all humans all over the world simultaneously (7 billion communications) all exactly identical in each person's language, and move Germany to central Siberia. I would have to give serious consideration to the existence of God at that point.

Clearly some sort of divine revelation would be summarily dismissed or would it? If you received a personal visit from the risen Christ in your living room, would you believe? Would anyone else believe you before you were commited to a padded cell?

Revelation to individuals are always suspect, and I would dismiss all such bollocks. If I received a personal visit from Jesus, my first action is to call emergency services, get hospitalised, and ask the doctors to find my brain tumour or treat my schizophrenia. Only a simultaneous 7 billion person revelation of exactly the same content would be acceptable as evidence. Alternatively if he turned Benny Hinn into a 200 lb giant slimey slug would be convincing of God's power and moral fibre.

If the Bible was written differently would it convince anyone? Eg if Daniel was clearly and obviously written by him when he lived would more people be convinced? (Joel that's for you!!).

I doubt it. I don't put much credibility on one book, any book. Even the best science books are only credible if they show related information to other books, and confirmation by independent testing. But the Bible would have to be 95% discarded as rubbish. The remaining 5% (Jesus' teachings) could be a core for a book on general morality. Jesus' morals are far from complete as are the last 6 commandments many editions and additions must be added, while the bollocks are tossed.

Just what evidence would convince atheists?

I already said: God speaking to all 7billion earth people at the same time understood in all languages and conveying the same message. I automatically reject claims of revelation by groups of less than 1,000,000 individuals. A simple demonstration would be the immediate terraforming of Venus and Mars within 6 days.

I would appreciate all views on this one. Diana, I specifically look forward to your thoughts on the matter.

You expect an unbiased view from someone named for a Goddess?

Conchobar

VonEvilstein

Spontaneous, painless, overnight regrowth of my appendix might be a good start.

But, as others have already posted, something big, flashy and effecting the entire world (in everyon'es own language) would be required.

I'd consider insanity a far greater possibility than personal revelation.

Xyzzy

>> Just what evidence would convince atheists?

Well here are some ideas:

1. The words "MADE BY GOD!" written very clearly in big bright letters of stars lightyears across down the length of the milky way.

2. Copyright (C) 4000 BC, God All Rights Reserved.. or something to that effect encoded repeatedly in the DNA of all animals.

3. Hmmm.. any of the major claims of creationism would be a start.. any one of them.. please.. just one.. well I guess this one is a real stretch.

4. A celestial being clothed in burning white coming down from the heavens in glory with cherubim and angels singing in chorus.. who then goes about destroying the wicked, casting down the false gods (whichever those actually turn out to be), and generally bringing peace on earth and punishment to all sinners.

5. Ahhh.. raising the dead might be good evidence. A scene where the bones rise from the ground, are reconstituted into living flesh in front of ones eyes might give us cause to pause and reflect.

6. Meeting 5 alien species, each of which also happens to have a Christian religion and believe in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.

7. See 144,000 people instantaneously disappear all over the earth would definitely cause one to stop and think. Especially if it was 144,000, and not one more or one less.

8. A person who talks to God who's prophecies of the sort such as "On the 10th of January 2004, Bill Clinton will be in a New York McDonalds when terrorists will strike and kill him right in the middle of eating a McNugget". A couple of these would certainly be interesting. Of course, we could never prove it was "God" they were talking to, and not a clever time traveler. But it would be interesting evidence.

9. A person speaking in tounges in a fundamentalist revival is found to have recited the exact text of fermats last theorem (well, before Andrew Wiles did it), or revealed the secret to a unified theory of gravity.

10. And finally I pray in the morning, and by noon Camron Diaz, Julia Roberts, and Britney Spears call me and ask me out on a date, I discover I've won a billion dollars in a lottery (I may or may not have entered), and I've been elected to the newly formed position of Emperor of the planet and the known cosmos. That would definitely be pretty convincing that there was "somebody" out there listening to my prayers. Now if I could at least just get those huge pectorals I've been asking for.

Stephen T-B

What a great fantasy thread this is!

I pray at breakfast that the glass of tepid water I’m about to drink be turned into 25-year old Spring Bank malt whisky, complete with appropriate label and lo and behold, it is!
I take a sip, confirm it’s what it claims to be and poor the rest down the drain - no need to keep it because I now know I can get the stuff any time I want.
By this stage I’m beginning to think there might be something to this religion thing after all.
Instead of going straight to work, I make a detour to our local hospice and go from room to room telling people God has cured them and they all immediately get better.
Now for the big test - Peace in the Middle East, and I’m not talking about some cobbled together peace plan, I mean the extremists on both sides swapping shirts, having dinner parties together and generally becoming best pals - and all within a week. (And my wife isn’t concerned about me being away so long ‘cause a nice lady angel has come and told her I’m OK, and also that I’m behaving myself - and she believes it.)

“Well my dear,” I say when I get back and we’re sitting in the garden, “I used to be an atheist but now I’m a True Believer.”

Deke

Pretty funny stuff lately in this thread. I think the topic was, "Hey atheists, what would it take for you to believe?"

I think you answered your own question in the original post when you mentioned the word "evidence".

I don't think it's too hard for atheists to concede that the human mind is just one of countless ways to experience the universe. But as beings who seem to be made from the same materials as the rest of the things in the universe, it simply seems unlikely that we can perceive of a being, or entity, or force, or whatever, that exists outside of the material of the universe.

It also seems highly unlikely that such an entity would be so boring as to reveal itself in the form of burning bushes, talking mules, parting seas, and resurrected dead people, to a few thousand people, over a period of a few hundred years, in an isolated part of a small planet, tucked in a remote corner of the universe.

So very compelling and unequivocal evidence is needed for a reasonable person to accept such ideas, inasmuch as the claims made are very compelling. Clearly, there are many ways for an omnipotent being to reveal itself and leave its witnesses with little or no doubt.

And quite certainly, an ancient text of an isolated people, claiming miracles and of all sorts, is not evidence.

MHO,

Deke

copernicus

To a theist, it may be that God's silence is divine. To an atheist, it means something else.

Starseyer

If the divinely inspired scriptures contained verifiable truth that couldn't have been humanly known at the time, then I would be a whole lot closer to believing. (I haven't found "prophecies" that are specific enough to fit the bill. And trust me, I was digging for them back when I was a believer.)
Or if the worldview presented in the bible was just consistent with the modern scientific view of the universe I probably wouldn't have started down this road of doubt to start with. I mean, if god created the universe, what he says about it should be consistant with what we have learned thus far, shouldn't it?

joedad

I want a god – any god – to tell me what a god is.

That would be a good start.

Kat_Somm_Faen

Make your presence felt as a deity. It does not even have to be about myself. I do not really need a billion dollars or some hot chick-du-jour. How about actually doing all of those things that are promised? How about limitless compassion... infinite love... justice.. salvation? Why am I inherently wicked and deserve to die and toil and suffer? Let God explain why do we all have to suffer collectivelly due Adam's original sin... ) Why do wicked run the show and why do we have to suffer wars, plagues and death... banish evil from this Earth :notworthy Answer the prayers of the rightheous.

How about omipotency? Make Sun flicker... make the evil ones shudder by turning the Sun "on" and "off". Make us believe by doing a universally obvious thing that is beyond laws of physics (like reverse entropy? ) Change the speed of light in vacuum to twice what it is :notworthy Let something like basic physics be rendered false for a day and reverse it on a whim followed by thunderous voice ringing from the heavens, splitting mountains, waking volcanoes, enraging the seas and proclaim "Behold my children, I AM YOUR GOD!!!" :notworthy

Break the laws of logic ( after all they are self-imposed by him, are they? ) Have a days when something could be white and balck at the same time. Make it so that 1+1 = 3 ... make the proverbial burrito that was so hot even Jesus could not eat it :notworthy