Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Travo5 · 08-13-2002, 08:46 PM

Hello folks,

I have attended a Christian high school the past two years, and though I was raised a Christian, I have developed a strong skepticism toward Christianity and many of its doctrines.

As all of you probably know, most Christians perform an act called prayer. From what I gather, prayer divides into four main categories: adoration, confession, aprecciation, and invocation. From my observations, the former three acts are irrelevant when concerning how effective prayer is because they demand no feedback. The critical point of the efficacy of prayer rests solely on the invocation and the answers therefrom.

Whenever someone prays to God in supplication, they can expect to get one of three answers: Yes, No, or maybe later. My question is this: How does somebody know that God is answering this prayer rather than the prayer being answered by the naturalistic random events that may follow? In other words, if I were to hope(instead of praying) for something, the random events that followed would answer my hope with a yes, no, or maybe later. In all honesty, I don't see how anybody is justified in saying that God answers prayers.

Another thing that I noticed many of my Christian friends do is attribute any result that proceeds from a prayer to the auspices of God. For example, one of my friends was late for a haircut at the mall. He prayed to God for a close parking space, but when he drove down the nearer lanes, not an open spot was to be found.

Instead of admitting that God did not answer his prayer, my friend claimed that God was trying to teach him a lesson in punctuality and patience. Therefore, God answered his prayer. Now I know I am not as intelligent as many of you on this board, but does anybody else sense a glaring problem here!? I intuitively feel that there is one, but I cannot quite articulate it. Could somebody help me out? Perhaps everyone else may deem my views silly, so I would appreciate some honest criticism.

Regards,
Travis

P.S. I do not really consider myself a Christian, but I don't think I'm an atheist. As far as belief in god/the supernatural goes, I try to be neutral and observant because I do not know enough to make the best informed decision.

Defiant Heretic · 08-13-2002, 10:07 PM

First off, I'd like to say welcome to the board.

As for your question, a good strategy would be to compare the results of praying and just hoping, as you appear to be doing already. If praying doesn't seem cause any signifigant change in the results, then chances are there's nothing to it. Just use your common sense and see where that gets you.

Quote:

P.S. I do not really consider myself a Christian, but I don't think I'm an atheist. As far as belief in god/the supernatural goes, I try to be neutral and observant because I do not know enough to make the best informed decision

This is called agnosticism. Its generally a good way to go, especially if you're just beginning to change your views of the world. Although I consider myself to be an atheist, I arrived at that conclusion through the neutral observation that you mentioned. I would advise you to keep an open mind, but remain skeptical. Common sense can be an excellent guide to life.

David Bowden · 08-13-2002, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travo5:
Hello folks,

Hi Travo5. Great post; welcome to the boards!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Travo5:
The critical point of the efficacy of prayer rests solely on the invocation and the answers therefrom.

Well put.

Quote:

Originally posted by Travo5:
Whenever someone prays to God in supplication, they can expect to get one of three answers: Yes, No, or maybe later.

(Meaning, they interpret subsequent events as speaking one of those three answers for God...)

Quote:

Originally posted by Travo5:
My question is this: How does somebody know that God is answering this prayer rather than the prayer being answered by the naturalistic random events that may follow?

A very good and very reasonable question. Have you asked a pastor this question?

Quote:

Originally posted by Travo5:
In all honesty, I don't see how anybody is justified in saying that God answers prayers.

I agree. No event can take place after a prayer, that doesn't fall somewhere into the basic framework "God approves of my request," "God rejects my request," or "Try again later; God's not ready to answer yet." And the answers, being interpreted subjectively, can differ from believer to believer - one person might interpret a set of circumstances as a "Yes" answer from God, and another person might interpret those same circumstances as a "No" from God. There's no way to tell who's right...

"The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history."
-Robert Heinlein

Quote:

Originally posted by Travo5:
P.S. I do not really consider myself a Christian, but I don't think I'm an atheist. As far as belief in god/the supernatural goes, I try to be neutral and observant because I do not know enough to make the best informed decision.

A good basic stance to take. Bertrand Russell wrote on the virtue of the willingness to suspend judgement:

"For my part, I should wish to preach the 'will to doubt.' ... What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite."

If you haven't already done so, you might enjoy browsing the Infidels Library, especially the section on Faith and Reason ( <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/reason/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/reason/index.shtml</a> ).

Once again, welcome to the boards and may your desire to understand lead you to a position you feel you can hold with utmost integrity.

-David

Travo5 · 08-14-2002, 08:51 PM

David and Defiant, thank you for the warm welcome

Quote:

This is called agnosticism. Its generally a good way to go, especially if you're just beginning to change your views of the world. Although I consider myself to be an atheist, I arrived at that conclusion through the neutral observation that you mentioned. I would advise you to keep an open mind, but remain skeptical. Common sense can be an excellent guide to life.

Thank you for the advice. However, my understanding is that the agnostic position is a bit more assertive then what I believe. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that agnosticism is the stance that the existence/qualities of a god are unknowable. As I wrote previously, I am trying to make my position as neutral as possible.

By the way, sorry to quibble over terms. I bet it becomes tiresome on these boards, but I consider it important for the sake of understanding. If we are going to discuss anything, we hafta speak the same language

--------------------------------------------------

Quote:

A very good and very reasonable question. Have you asked a pastor this question?

Not exactly. I really like my pastor (I still go to church sometimes <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ), and to be honest, I have not gotten the nerve to confront him. However, I did go to a Christian school last year, and I raised the question (though I did not debate it much). I have not received a satisfactory answer.

Regards,
Travis

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Travo5 ]

Defiant Heretic · 08-14-2002, 10:53 PM

Agnosticism is saying "I don't know enough to make a decision" Some agnostics think they will never know, but this isn't a requirement.

randomsyllable · 08-15-2002, 07:43 AM

Hi Travo5 welcomen, bienvenue, welcome, gutentaag, ciao, etc, etc.

In regards to your comment about quibbling over terms:

This is a very important thing to remember. Everyone's view of a term such as agnostic tends to be somewhat different. However, it is your own personal take that matters. I, myself, am agnostic and I don't declare god as an unknowable, I merely state that I can't be sure, and I have more to learn.

Oh well, just my take on it - don't worry its not some dirty second-place award around here or such ;p

-random

Mageth · 08-15-2002, 08:00 AM

Travo5:

Welcome! Great post - and you're very articulate.

I understand you want to be neutral, but if you lean towards belief in a god, but don't think that god "interferes" with our lives (e.g. through prayer), you might look into Deism.

bocajeff · 08-15-2002, 01:17 PM

George Carlin has some great insight into the notion of prayer:

"I've found that my prayers to Joe Pesci and my prayers to God were answered at the same 50-50 rate."

Arrowman · 08-15-2002, 05:37 PM

Welcome, Travo5. And a very good first post!

As an atheist, of course I do not believe that prayer has any value. However I have much less of a problem with prayer as "adoration, confession, aprecciation" than I do with "invocation" as you put it (very well).

Firstly and most obviously, this is because prayer for invocation can be objectively measured as worthless. Secondly, and more intuitively, it seems to me that if God did exist, he'd have a higher purpose than finding parking spaces for tardy teenagers.

Consider the Lord's Prayer - the one place in the Bible where Jesus specifically tells his followers how to pray. Apart from the bit about "give us this day our daily bread", which is really a very general request to "watch over us", the LP says nothing at all about asking God for specific acts.

The last time I attended a church service, last year, the (Anglican) minister spoke on this very subject and pointed out to the congregation that God's not there to answer specific requests like the one you cite.

PS If you want to see some good examples of the lunacy of prayer, check out the Baptist Board prayer thread at
<a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=26" target="_blank">http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=26</a>

schu · 08-15-2002, 06:28 PM

"ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YOU SHALL ASK IN PRAYER, BELIEVING, YOU SHALL RECEIVE." (MATTHEW 21:22)

Well, the preachers and the apologists can make all the claims they want, but the passage by JC says "all things". Not just all things, but all things whatsoever. I don't know how a sane person can rationalize that out of existence. "All things whatsoever" is an absolute. Seems to me it makes a liar of JC. Seems more rational to believe the bible myths and old stories.

08-13-2002, 08:46 PM	#1
Travo5 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston Posts: 16	The efficacy of prayer Hello folks, I have attended a Christian high school the past two years, and though I was raised a Christian, I have developed a strong skepticism toward Christianity and many of its doctrines. As all of you probably know, most Christians perform an act called prayer. From what I gather, prayer divides into four main categories: adoration, confession, aprecciation, and invocation. From my observations, the former three acts are irrelevant when concerning how effective prayer is because they demand no feedback. The critical point of the efficacy of prayer rests solely on the invocation and the answers therefrom. Whenever someone prays to God in supplication, they can expect to get one of three answers: Yes, No, or maybe later. My question is this: How does somebody know that God is answering this prayer rather than the prayer being answered by the naturalistic random events that may follow? In other words, if I were to hope(instead of praying) for something, the random events that followed would answer my hope with a yes, no, or maybe later. In all honesty, I don't see how anybody is justified in saying that God answers prayers. Another thing that I noticed many of my Christian friends do is attribute any result that proceeds from a prayer to the auspices of God. For example, one of my friends was late for a haircut at the mall. He prayed to God for a close parking space, but when he drove down the nearer lanes, not an open spot was to be found. Instead of admitting that God did not answer his prayer, my friend claimed that God was trying to teach him a lesson in punctuality and patience. Therefore, God answered his prayer. Now I know I am not as intelligent as many of you on this board, but does anybody else sense a glaring problem here!? I intuitively feel that there is one, but I cannot quite articulate it. Could somebody help me out? Perhaps everyone else may deem my views silly, so I would appreciate some honest criticism. Regards, Travis P.S. I do not really consider myself a Christian, but I don't think I'm an atheist. As far as belief in god/the supernatural goes, I try to be neutral and observant because I do not know enough to make the best informed decision.

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08-14-2002, 10:53 PM	#5
Defiant Heretic Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,288	Agnosticism is saying "I don't know enough to make a decision" Some agnostics think they will never know, but this isn't a requirement.

08-15-2002, 07:43 AM	#6
randomsyllable Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: somewhere in Canada Posts: 188	Hi Travo5 welcomen, bienvenue, welcome, gutentaag, ciao, etc, etc. In regards to your comment about quibbling over terms: This is a very important thing to remember. Everyone's view of a term such as agnostic tends to be somewhat different. However, it is your own personal take that matters. I, myself, am agnostic and I don't declare god as an unknowable, I merely state that I can't be sure, and I have more to learn. Oh well, just my take on it - don't worry its not some dirty second-place award around here or such ;p -random

08-15-2002, 08:00 AM	#7
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Travo5: Welcome! Great post - and you're very articulate. I understand you want to be neutral, but if you lean towards belief in a god, but don't think that god "interferes" with our lives (e.g. through prayer), you might look into Deism.

08-15-2002, 01:17 PM	#8
bocajeff Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: HelL.A. Posts: 1,157	George Carlin has some great insight into the notion of prayer: "I've found that my prayers to Joe Pesci and my prayers to God were answered at the same 50-50 rate."

08-15-2002, 05:37 PM	#9
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Welcome, Travo5. And a very good first post! As an atheist, of course I do not believe that prayer has any value. However I have much less of a problem with prayer as "adoration, confession, aprecciation" than I do with "invocation" as you put it (very well). Firstly and most obviously, this is because prayer for invocation can be objectively measured as worthless. Secondly, and more intuitively, it seems to me that if God did exist, he'd have a higher purpose than finding parking spaces for tardy teenagers. Consider the Lord's Prayer - the one place in the Bible where Jesus specifically tells his followers how to pray. Apart from the bit about "give us this day our daily bread", which is really a very general request to "watch over us", the LP says nothing at all about asking God for specific acts. The last time I attended a church service, last year, the (Anglican) minister spoke on this very subject and pointed out to the congregation that God's not there to answer specific requests like the one you cite. PS If you want to see some good examples of the lunacy of prayer, check out the Baptist Board prayer thread at <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=26" target="_blank">http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=26</a>

08-15-2002, 06:28 PM	#10
schu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 707	"ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YOU SHALL ASK IN PRAYER, BELIEVING, YOU SHALL RECEIVE." (MATTHEW 21:22) Well, the preachers and the apologists can make all the claims they want, but the passage by JC says "all things". Not just all things, but all things whatsoever. I don't know how a sane person can rationalize that out of existence. "All things whatsoever" is an absolute. Seems to me it makes a liar of JC. Seems more rational to believe the bible myths and old stories.

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