galiel

It is up to each and every one of us to chose whether we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution. I suggest using the upcoming March as a catalyst for personal activism in pursuit of the goals enumerated in the March's Statement of Principles at <a href="http://godlessamericans.org/statement.shtml" target="_blank">http://godlessamericans.org/statement.shtml</a>

Note that support of these principles, and participatin in the March, does not imply support of or participation in AA. Let's get off our divisive thinking and work toward our common goals.

What ideas do people have about ways in which plain, ordinary citizen atheists/agnostics/non-believers/label of your choice can ramp up the visibility of the struggle for atheist's/etc. civil rights?

And how can we each individually sustain and build momentum following the March?

As the saying goes, think global, act local.

[ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

galiel

Hmm. Galiel, I'm not sure what it is, but something about your tone seems to be turning people off--especially the most timid ones who are the ones we most need to support in finding a way out of the closet and into an active, public presence as nontheists. I don't think I can provide much perspective on the problem, but perhaps others here can.

Or, perhaps others can simply overlook the specific language and examine the heart of the topic:

Asking for suggestions about ways to raise consciousness within society (American in particular) about the civil rights of nontheists and the discrimination they face. Specifically, with the Godless March (and the elections) coming up, how can we build momentum between now and November, and how can we build on whatever energy is created during the March to propel us forward.

galiel

Yes, I think that is much better. I am glad this topic is finally drawing some attention.

HelenM

This might be my first post in this forum - and I almost hate to break your unbroken chain of posts to yourself but I guess I will anyway

So, Mr Closet Atheist says "But I'm quite happy in the closet, thank you very much".

What is your response? Is it "Ah, but you can't really be happy in there!" and so you try to get him out for his own good - or "too bad because The Cause Needs You" - so you try and get him out for the good of the Cause.

Or do you say "Fine!" and let him be

Or do you say "Fine! (You complete coward!!!)"

Just wondering

(And yes, I do know that there is no such thing as spoken parentheses)

take care
Helen

rainbow walking

Well, as I'll be working in southern New Jersey right across the river from Washington, I have every intention of being there. Hope to see you there galiel.

Alonzo Fyfe

As for me, my first response would be, "Please take the opportunity to read Martin Luther King's <a href="http://almaz.com/nobel/peace/MLK-jail.html" target="_blank">Letter from a Birmingham Jail.</a>

Familiarizing yourself with the contents of this letter would be a fine place to start.

Particularly that portion that begins as follows:

"I must confess over the past few years I have been gravely disapponted with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regreattable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the Whit Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: 'I agree with you in all the goals you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action'; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a 'more convenient season.'"

It is, I think, an excellent place to start.

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

Rusting Car Bumper

The March as far as I can see is "The AA Show."

I have seen no evidence that they are going to let anyone except AA speakers have a voice except for one token rep from the Council for Secular Humanism.

A statement of principles is all well and good but the March will be what is said during speeches, and what makes it onto the nightly news. If what makes it onto the nightly news is "Religion sucks" and "Religious people are stupid and brainwashed" then I don't think the Statement of Principles will matter too much.

While there is nothing I generally disagree with in the statement of principles, its what it doesn't say that is a problem. The non-belief community needs to offer olive branches to theists and build bridges. I don't think that is AA's approach.

I am not attending the march and I will only endorse it when its shown its not the typical AA show. At this time I don't see that happening.

DC

NialScorva

I'm going to be at the march.

However, I think that activism will more likely damage the atheistic cause more than help it. For example, I think that Newdon is currently hurting the church/state seperation far more than he's helping. How are we supposed to convince people that HHS *shouldn't* be giving money to near-evangelical groups when all they hear is "ban the pledge. ban the pledge. ban the pledge"?

We really have to ask ourselves what we are trying to accomplish, then the best way to achieve that. I don't think that we are under a degree of repression comparable to that of the african americans decades ago. What we need is a social reform rather than a legal reform. In-your-face activism is highly detrimental to social reform. The best way to do this is by setting an example on the personal level. I talk with others quite often about my atheism, but it's become tremendously more difficult since the 9th circuit ruling, because it's one of the first things I get asked. It's very difficult to explain why I support the ruling to someone without any foundation for mutual communication.


We need a guerrilla war, not a legal carpet bombing of religion. Public perception is *everything*, and the public percieves atheists as a conspiracy to destroy religion. The first and foremost task of advocacy is to dispell this myth, and show that we are people no different than they are.

Rusting Car Bumper

Indeed. and I think the works of King should be read by all non-believers who think this in your face attitude of insulting religionists is the way to go.

DC

Alonzo Fyfe

I will seek to answer this with another quote from MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

"Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money preciptatied the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock?...We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affiremd, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber."

Now, I have been among those who are critical of Newdow's strategy and of the Godless March -- but not to the point that I say they ought not to be done.

They ought to be done differently, but I would not feel comfortable in telling anybody that standing up for their rights is something that they ought not have done.