Dominus Paradoxum

http://www.secularism.org.uk/poland.htm

atheist_in_foxhole

There's a similar article here.

Psycho Economist

I'm seriously curious about how the situation in Poland compares to the situation in also-very-Catholic E.U. member state Ireland.

The letter, however, reaks of the over-the-top browbeating that is, i suppose, proper form for a greivance letter when one is as overwhelmed as they are.

How are religious minorities being discriminated against, except in that their tax dollars fund religious endeavours? No mention is made of religous minorities being systematically mistreated or denied economic and political opportunities. The family planning laws they oppose are applied equally to catholics and non-Catholics.

The church-state seperation breaches they mention are egregious by United States standards, and if they are in violation of Polish law and are carried out in an occult manner that is even more unfortunate. But they never support their initial assertion that these theocratic reforms lack popular support, only insisting that the public isn't educated enough to (want to?) oppose them.

Toto

These statements take my breath away.

Having your tax dollars fund someone else's religion is pretty serious in my book.

Allowing the Catholic Church to impose its views on abortion and birth control on everyone, Catholic or not, is hardly an indication of religious neutrality.

It is true, they have not burnt a heretic at a stake (yet). But I suspect that is only because they know they couldn't get away with it in today's modern climate of opinion, which has been debased by secular humanism and turned away from Godliness.

Dominus Paradoxum

Psycho economist, didn't you read about the church's confiscation of property, their censorship of all media, and their remarks against Jews and homosexuals?

Psycho Economist

Maybe it's the shriveled up libertarian in me, but I'm inclined to take a very strict view about what constitutes discrimination. If it's done in a way that doesn't systematically target some people and not others, it's not discrimination. Unless the church is pulling strings to get eminent domain called on specific minorities: sure, it's unethical but not discrimination.

Secondly, I'm in favor of them enacting and restoring church-state seperations everwhere, but if the majority favors (or even just resignedly accepts) theocracy, the greivances they list aren't going to be seen as just. Saying "this and this and this are problems," without making a case for why they're wrong can win you an audience where those behaviors are seen as wrong (The U.S., U.K. and elsewhere in the E.U.). But when you're speaking to those who condone it, you plead a case to deaf ears. Doubly so when you address those taking active part in selling their country to the church.

I agree that any runaway intrest group ought to be reigned in, especially one with the Catholic church's track record. I just think their tone will win them more enemies than allies among those they need to convince.

Old Man

This article is written by a liar. Take a look at what he says:

"Catholic officials encourage--demand --large families "for the glory of God and Poland," even though Poland has now become one of the most overpopulated and polluted countries in Europe"

Now take a look at the population/land statistics for Germany and Poland:

Poland:

total: 312,685 sq km
water: 8,220 sq km
land: 304,465 sq km

arable land: 45.81%
permanent crops: 1.23%
other: 52.96% (1998 est.)

Population: 38,625,478

Germany:
total: 357,021 sq km
water: 7,798 sq km
land: 349,223 sq km

arable land: 33.88%
permanent crops: 0.65%
other: 65.47% (1998 est.)

Population: 83,251,851


So it is observed that Poland is now 50% as populated as Germany. No guesses as to what will happen if Poland joins the EU. It will be swamped by rich Germans & other foreigners looking for loot. WWII will repeat itself, but this time it will be the Poles committing national suicide by inviting the Germans in.

The EU is essentially as Atheist's paradise. Th EU owns no morals other than the lowest common denominator - and that is a very low standard of morality indeed. The morals of the ECHR are completely incompatible with Catholic or even Christian teaching. Poland beware of the wolf!

Psycho Economist

See, I actually liked that one a little better. Probably because it didn't take a hostile tone towards the policymakers to whom it was addressed (not that it was addressed to policy makers). And it went into reasons why Polish policies were wrong, aside from appealing to our sense of church & state seperation.

Yes, Old Man... laws are written for the lowest common denominator. But there's no excuse for not living above those minimum standards... whatever that means for you. (Except, of course if it would lead to violation of other laws or of others' rights.)

himynameisPwn

Which leads to this question Old Man, why should rights be sacrificed to impose "moral laws" when many people may totally disagree with them. Laws for the good of society, ie no murder, stopping at red lights make sense, but laws regarding morality don't.

For example, why should a coutnry require its people to give to a charity or why should a country legislate that adultery will land you in jail? In cases where the right or wrong of a particular issue is questionable, the question is even more valid. Should a coutnry be able to outlaw homosexuality, etc.

Of course the EU constitution is only a minimal set of standards, the coutries can make their own laws based on morals and not violate the EU constitution.

VonEvilstein

I view any attempt to legislate morality as being highly unethical, Old Man.