Doctor X

Only by your definition. That something is in a scripture, like a flat-earth, is not "self-evident," it is wrong.

This method of scholarship will only cause you headaches.

What you cannot avoid is justifying how you can "pick and choose" between rules in scripture. If the writers were wrong in one place, how do you know they were not wrong in another.

Thus the question remains unanswered:

. . . whether you believe it because it is in scripture.


--J.D.

Milton

It seems you are seing something in my writings I have not intented you to see.

I never said "self-evident", and I never meant "evident" to mean "outside of Scripture." I said evident, implying 'evident in Scripture.'

It sure does.

Who said I pick and choose?

I have not claimed any such thing.

I have answered it, yet you seem to be suffering from selective amnesia.

Opera Nut

Guys, check out www.apologeticspress.org/

Article: JESUS:UNIQUE SAVIOR OR AVERAGE FRAUD?

The link was at www.davidicke.com

They have some pretty comprehensive stuff about Isis/Osiris/Horus, Zeus, Mithra, Prometheus, etc.

Lonely_Road_Of_Faith

Hi all,
I'm new here, I'm a Christian and I don't believe in speaking in tongues. I've been a Christian for about 5 years,,,I was raised Catholic but didn't stick with it after confirmation, as I coulda cared less about God at the time. I do my best to be logical and reasonable and to be a good person. I freely admit to not being perfect, I'm not better then anybody else, and in fact I'm worse then lots of people.

I'm divorced, my ex-wife was one of those "Holy Roller" Pentecostal types who think that you have to speak in tongues, have visions, and all sorts of other stuff. She also thinks "God told her,,," all sorts of things.

Well, not exactly,,,Before I left her she was controlling, manipulative, emotionally and verbally abusive, she couldn't be trusted, and I suspect she cheated on me. All things considered she was pretty obnoxious to be around, so I left.

AFTER I left my ex "found Jesus" (as if He got lost in the woods or something.) She started attending a Pentecostal church (we'd gone to a Baptist church before) and all the sudden God told her all this stuff, mostly how we were meant to be together and going to have two kids (with really oddball names no less) and we were going to have this great ministry or something,,,she said God told her I was going to be some kind of prophet :banghead: It was all terribly frustrating and painful for me, because at the same time she was stalking me, she hacked into my E-mail, and she tried to wreck my relationship with the woman I was dating (never mind that I was lonely.) She'd call me and harass me all the time, finally I just called the police one day.

I'd left her in Febuary, I filed for divorce in May. She bugged me off and on all summer, finally I just quit caring, I didn't want to have anything to do with God, with Christ, or with Christians.

In August I met Brandi,,,who was a Satanist. The attraction was instant for both of us, we hung out together constantly, E-mailed each other 10 or 12 times a day, etc. etc. among other things, we'd stay up talking all night, and after awhile I realized that I COULD make my own decisions and do my own thing without having to worry that much about God. Here was somebody who was a Satanist (eeeek, one of those people the fundys tell you to be afraid of!) who was pretty nice, a decent and moral person, and actually fun to hang out with. Even though Brandi and I only dated for a couple months the relationship had some lasting effects on me. I learned to think for myself and weigh what people said against what they did, and I learned it was OK to question and change.

I'm still a Christian, though I didn't act like one for a couple years and I quit going to church and stuff. My ex- of course went psycho for a while and I just stayed away from her (tho I got lots of nasty phone calls and emails and stuff from her.) Eventually I moved away, and changed my email addys and everything. So now she doesn't know where I am and can't bother me. The divorce was final in Febuary of last year.

But anyway my ex always spoke in tongues, or claimed she could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit or this or that or the other thing, she probably looked up every verse in the Bible that had to do with divorce, and she claimed she was a "proverbs 31" sort of woman (i.e. the old-testament ideal for a wife.) She tried to "lay hands" on me to "let me feel the holy ghost's fire" more then once. Honestly I never felt anything, just to be mean in a creative sort of way I "faked" a few spiritual experiences...never thought Acting class could be so useful,,,lol. But she thought they were perfectly real. Her actions of course, didn't often line up with what she was saying, I honestly think she's a fake,,,the fact that she "bought it" when I faked something makes me think she doesn't know the "real thing" when she sees it.

Anyway, the whole thing is an experience I'm not proud of or happy about. Last fall, in my belief, God started working on me,,,and since about March I've considered myself to be a Christian again. I'm pretty liberal and tolerant, I do my best to be open-minded, and I'm very wary of fundies and people who claim to have any sort of special "gift" or "knowledge" from God.

I guess the way I figure it, the actions of such people often do not line up with what Jesus actually taught.

Sorry if I'm ranting, I just felt the need.

Craig

Biff the unclean

Hi Craig. Ya know there are plenty of nice women in the world who are not religious nut cases. Did you ever think of taking an adult education class in a subject you are interested in? There will be women there who will share that interest.

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't lose your belief after all of that. Might I be so bold as to ask what you are looking for here? I mean you are more than welcome to be here, but what brought you?

Doctor X

On the contrary, let us review the catechism:

good, and given the response above then we return to the question:

. . . whether you believe it because it is in scripture.

to which we then receive the petulent protest:

Argumentum ad hominem aside, then we can conclude:

1. He supports child sacrifice.
2. He believes Junior was born twice and roughly ten years appart.
3. He supports the massacre of women, children, and infants . . . not to mention oxen, sheep. . . .
4. The Earth is flat.

For, in response to:

he responded:

Quod erat demonstrandum. . . .

--J.D.

Lonely_Road_Of_Faith

I'm a college student, I've managed to meet lots of nice girls in class.

Actually, I post on several other forums,,,and an Atheist friend of mine who posts on a couple of them recommended here, I'm just looking for somewhere to discuss things without having to worry about terms of service that promote a particular religion or whatever.

No, I didn't "lose" my belief, nor do I plan on doing so,,,but my beliefs changed over time,,,and with life experience. Believe me when I tell ya I wasn't this philosophical, logical, or openminded 3 years ago,,,hehehehe.

Let's put it this way, I used to be a Fundy Christian who hung out with other fundies, peeps from A.A. and a couple buddies from when I was in the air force and that was basically it. Either way, mostly just peeps who thought like I did.

Now I'm a Liberal sort of Christian and I have many friends who are of several different religions (or none at all) from all over the world, and I've done a lot of things I might not have otherwise. I find myself challenged, and thinking, much more, because I learned it was a good thing to hang out with peeps who disagree, it keeps things fun and interesting.

Sometimes things happen for a reason, I think all the stuff I went through caused me to take a good hard look at life, as Bob Dylan said, he who is not busy being born is busy dying.

Craig

AJ113

My original questioning was inteneded to produce exactly this line of reasoning. I will leave the issue in the more-than-capable hands of Doctor X, although I doubt that you will receive a reasonable reply to your reasonable questions.

Doctor X

AJ113:

Thank you, actually I feel a little bad about "jumping on your chessboard"--you were maneuvering him quite smoothly. He became petulent so I rather rushed towards mate.

Please do stay, I enjoy the company--besides, it was your strategy, you dug the grave, I merely provided the banana peel.

--J.D.

HelenM

Hi Craig

No problem.

Feel free to introduce yourself in the Lounge if you like (although you don't have to, of course). You could cut and paste some of the stuff about yourself that you already posted in this thread, to save writing it all out again.

The rules in the Lounge and other community forums are a little stricter than on the other forums here regarding what theists may say; nevertheless I don't expect you'll run into any problems with them and if you do inadvertently, all that will happen is that you'll be politely notified and your post may be edited a little.

Anyway, welcome

Helen