souperman

Since Monday, I have been at a Christian revival that I went to solely due to the fact that my friend, a devout Christian, invited me. All was well until the evening service of the last night.

I could understand people lifting their hands, I mean, it's not that hard to lift your hands up. But do these people REALLY believe that by knocking someone on the head and speaking to them they can get someone to start speaking gibberish?

Let me explain... my friend came up to me on the last night, asked me something about do I want to accept the holy ghost. I said sure, since he kind of put me on the spot and I didn't really want to put my friendship at stake and do otherwise. So he told me to lift my hands... ok, I did this, not feeling anything... put his hand on my head and started talking: Please, Jesus, deliver this person, oh father please let the holy ghost speak through him. Nothing happened. Nothing at all... No "burst of fire throughout my body," no speaking another language... I saw people fall over... I can assume why, my friend was pushing me on the forehead backwards... Hmm, now someone being passive would fall over too, wouldn't they? Not putting up resistance? The first day I heard people talking in tongues my friend told me they were all speaking the same language... HA! Everyone was saying their own gibberish...

Abongaba abongaba hai was the phrase repeated by the scary lady who led the revival and told everyone to go start a crusade against public schools (Denounce evolution and Harry Potter! Go put a Bible in everyone's hand and speak the word!)... and everyone was just saying their own gibberish... But to the point...

Do these people really believe that a spirit is speaking through them? Or is what I said really true, that everyone is just copying other people?

Thank you for your time reading this post.

(P.S. - Anyone have a link of something that I could use as ammo against the New Testament God? If a Christian says something about the Old Testament, I can usually refute him and say how it's made up and superstitious... but the New Testament God and Jesus is a little harder since he's all about love... still superstitous, but harder to convince Christians)

King Rat

Tuphlegm Grdlfumpf...

emotional

"Abongaba abongaba hai"? Sounds like a pygmy chant to me...

Mageth

Do these people really believe that a spirit is speaking through them?

Yes, sadly they do. Even if it comes out, as it often does, as something like "Dee dee dee dee dee...<sob>....dee dee dee...<sob>...". Apparently the spirit has a limited vocabulary, and is rather a sad sort of fellow.

ex-xian

Well, I'm a former tongue-talking, prophecying, falling in the floor and shaking, pentecostal. I even went to the pentecostal mecca brownsville assembly of god, home of the Brownesville Revival (TM); and I attended the revival's bible college, brownsville revival school of ministry, home of God's Chosen Army (TM).

They really do believe that the holy ghost is speaking through them. 1 corinthins 12-14 gives the biblical explanation for what happens. Also, they believe that by putting their hands on your body (usually your head) that they can "impart" the holy ghost to you.

But did you friend think that you were a xian? The only movement that tries to get non-xians baptized in the holy ghost are the propenents of the "Alpha" teachings. But they are very low profile and non-pressure. A real "seeker sensitive" bunch.

If you have any more questions, let me know. I was a great apologist for the pentecostal movement before I realized how ridiculous it all was.

souperman

Ex-Xian -

What was it like when you started speaking in tongues? Did you yourself believe that something was happening when you were a Christian?

And well, I'm currently in the stage of my life where I'm questioning my religious beliefs. Me, the Christian friend, and two non-churchgoer friends went... I was the only one that actively went to Church. But I haven't been going as consistantly since I found these forums and realized that a bunch of the Christian philosophy was nonsense. My Christian friend still thought I was a Christian. But I really had it in me that if anything was out there, any god at all, that this would be it... If there wasn't proof at this camp, then it *was* just nonsense. I promised that to myself... and when my Christian friend came to me and asked if I wanted the holy ghost... I said yes, and opened myself up waiting for something to happen.

Nothing.

Nothing at all.

Oh well.

Mageth

Well, I'm a former tongue-talking, prophecying, falling in the floor and shaking, pentecostal. I even went to the pentecostal mecca brownsville assembly of god, home of the Brownesville Revival (TM); and I attended the revival's bible college, brownsville revival school of ministry, home of God's Chosen Army (TM).

I'm a former AG too (the denom I was raised in), as well as a former Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and non-denom. Fortunately, the AG church I went to didn't go overboard on the "falling in the floor and shaking" bit. There was a lot of glossolalia, laying on of hands (with accompanying speaking in tongues and usually quite a bit of sweating, to try to "impart" the spirit, heal or "deliver" you from something or another), faith healing and prophesying, though.

I remember being pressured to get "filled with the spirit" as a youngster, with the requisite "proof" of speaking in tongues. It seems some considered you weren't truly (or fully) "saved" until you did just that. IIRC, at some point I gave in and just sorta "faked" it, though I suppose I convinced myself that perhaps it was real.

A guilt-inducing, terrifying experience all round for a youngster to go through, IMO.

Doctor X

If you are really interested in NT stuff, wander a bit over to BC&H here . . . they snarl, but rarely bite . . . and check out some of the threads and links. Also check out the Recommended Reading.

The problem with finding "Tricks to Ask Fundies" is that they are just that:

souperman: Well, explain to me why Jesus is born twice ten years appart?

RandomFundi: He was not, the first was his Jewish birth and the second was his gentile birth demonstrating he is God for us all.

souperman: Eh?

You need to know the background. Thus:

DoctorX: Entering with flowing cape which he promptly trips on No, both narratives are link to two different historical events--the reign of Herod and the census--which cannot be reconciled because we know the dates of both!

RandomFundi: Oh dear! Disappears in Puff of Logic

souperman: How can I ever thank you?

DoctorX: I prefer unmarked bills. . . .

Anyways, understanding what the texts actually say is the best way of understanding why fundamentalists are just manipulating them to support their current wishes.

As for "speaking in tongues," I believe James Randi did an experiement where he tapes "sessions" with a minister who would interpret the gibberish--he tended to interpret the same "conversation" differently each time! You might be interested in his wonderful book The Faith Healers--available at his website: JREF. It explains how such practices "work."

Oh yeah . . . welcome to the forums.

--J.D.

Milton

So, souperman, you can only believe that a god exists if he is making people speak in languages nobody understands, noteven [pentecostals] themselves?

why did you ever believe that a god existed, in the first place? I am assuming you did believe something at one point, because you say that you are losing, or lost your religion.

ex-xian

Well, at the time I believed that something supernatural was happening. But in retrospect, I believe it is just a form of hypnotism and suggestion. Sometimes someone would lay hands on me and I would cry like a baby, other times nothing.

Considering that I was abused as a child, the emotional support and sharing of pain that comes with a prayer session can account for many of my reactions. I'm still greatful for the many understanding and compassionate xians that I met in church. However, much more common were the "heavy handers" who seemed to want people to display a manifestation in order to make themselves seem more spiritual.

Getting back to the hypnotism aspect. In a psych 101 class, the prof did a group hypnotic induction. I participated and, to make a long story short, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being non-hynotisable (sp?) and 10 be highly hypotizable, I would be about a 4.5. That would correlate with my experience with pentecostal phenomona. In the churches you'll always have the groups that always react, those that react sometimes, and those that really want feel something, but never do.

I congragulate you on questioning your religion. I'm a firm believer that the outcome isn't nearly as important as the journey. Whatever you eventual decision, I'm sure you'll be welcome here...as long as you don't turn into a fundy jerk. I, myself, could best be described as an agnostic-fideist-panentheist. Needless to say, I don't care for labels.

Hope you decide to hang around for awhile. When I first got here, I was in a very similiar position as yourself. In fact, my handle used to be xian-seeker. That is, I was a Christian seeking the truth. Eventually, the problems with xianity become to big and I formally requested a name change. The vast majority of the posters here are thoughtful, kind, intelligent people. Personal attacks and flames aren't allowed, and are dealt with quickly by the mods However, as Doctor X said, they're not so gentle when it comes to beliefs. Some of my most meaningful discussions here have been those that were most intense, and caused me to question myself and my beliefs.

Unfortunately, this was part and pacel to my life for almost 2 decades. I congratulate you on being able to distance yourself from the extremes.