Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Carol Massey · 07-14-2003, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional

All it means is both Christians and I have an obsession with the death question. I don't like Christianity; what with its doctrine of eternal hell of sadistic torture, I regard it as a satanic religion. But I do like the motif of "triumph over death".

[/b] [/B]

emotional,

are you telling me that you are buying the farm for those three little words.

Geezloueeze! And I have a house for sale in Timbucktoo. Wanna see it?

emotional, who scared the shit out of you?....somebody did, and they were probably doing and saying what they were taught when somebody scared it out of them...that is how all the crap in the world recycles....

somebodies gotta break the chain, or the chain is going to beat us all to death.

emotional, I don't mean to be obnoxious about this, but somebody's gotta tell you my friend that it's time to start living your life....because there is one thing worse than death..... it is being so afraid of dying that you never learn to live.

andy_d · 07-15-2003, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leyline
I now feel that the universe is sometimes telling me things through what i would have previously dismissed as coincidence.

Or maybe you're just choosing to communicate with yourself by interpreting the things around you as messages to you. Maybe you're your own angel.

emotional · 07-15-2003, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carol Massey
are you telling me that you are buying the farm for those three little words.

All I say is belief in life after death is medication for my fear. I have a right to treat my fear in any way I see fit, haven't I?

Quote:

emotional, who scared the shit out of you?....somebody did, and they were probably doing and saying what they were taught when somebody scared it out of them...that is how all the crap in the world recycles....

My parents did, when I was eight years old. They told me (quite honestly - they still believe so) that the grave is the end of all. That scared the shit out of me for the rest of my life.

Quote:

emotional, I don't mean to be obnoxious about this, but somebody's gotta tell you my friend that it's time to start living your life....because there is one thing worse than death..... it is being so afraid of dying that you never learn to live.

Now that I don't fear death anymore, I can live. You know how many sleepless nights and avoided situtations this fear has caused me? Now I'm finally alive!

Thanks for your concern, anyway.

Carol Massey · 07-15-2003, 06:50 AM

Goodmorning emotional,

"IF" everything ended in the grave, it would be logical and sane to fear death; however, I'm not buying that my identity is defined by ego (a momentary sense of a separate, autonomous self).

Paradoxically, there is also a Self which I know (but remain largely unconscious of) residing within/behind the temporary ego. The little I do know is this: My ego rides the waves of the ocean of Self.

I think that's the "aha" within the often quoted saying:
"I am that I am", meaning I am that which I am, or also, pointing to another, "I am that -> I am"....meaning you, dear emotional.

Talking to myself here, so I hope you do not take it personally. Another way that I understand relationship is this:

By your own name here in the forum, I assume that emotion would be how you normally relate to the world, as your superior (most often used and conscious) function....I might be to you, your inferior (thinking function) projected outward. On the other hand, if "thinking" is my superior function, then you would represent to me emotion as my inferior function, projected outwardly.

Bye now! Off to work with me.

07-15-2003, 10:10 AM

andy

"Or maybe you're just choosing to communicate with yourself by interpreting the things around you as messages to you. Maybe you're your own angel."

ooo yeh. there is plenty of room in this world for delusion, and plenty of other ways of looking at what we believe that will suggest just that! lol But if the angels are speaking to me and i dismissed them out of logic, then i would be criticising them for not using block capital letters.

who am i to do that?

Opera

what you have told us shows how the 'physical' can suddenly resonate powerfully with the spiritual. I personally cannot think why such things happen, but then again why should the physical world be necessarily understood through reason alone? Those charged events tell us something more than our own foibles. They are gateways and clues to deeper realisations. They enable us to make special contributions to the world through our special sensitivites.

Emotional

what i think people like yourself show us by believing in the afterlife (for whatever reason) is a responsibility towards the overall shape of our physical lives. Those who do not believe in life or existence beyond death have a much more difficult time with a relationship to cosmic morality and the power of love beyond our personal relationships.

Carol

yes the emotional and reasonable are different ways of relating to the physical world. But surely it is the emotional that leads to the spiritual? It has 'feel'. I think it is more and more difficult in the west to relate to the physical world. Our environment has been commercialised and we are encouraged to relate more and more to the virtual.

Carol Massey · 07-15-2003, 04:02 PM

Leyline, you said:

"yes the emotional and reasonable are different ways of relating to the physical world. But surely it is the emotional that leads to the spiritual? It has 'feel'. I think it is more and more difficult in the west to relate to the physical world. Our environment has been commercialised and we are encouraged to relate more and more to the virtual."

I don't understand leyline, the idea of 'leading' -> to that which we all ready are. We are as spiritual as we're ever gonna get, here and now....what we choose to do with the awesome energy that creates and moves us is top priority. We cannot help but create, it is our nature....but what? are we creating, and how? are we doing it, and what? do we need to do, if anything, to alter or change in the way we are doing it?

I whole-heartedly agree with the runaway train of technology, although it is not so simple in my mind. There is much good that has come of technological advancement, and I doubt anyone would want to imagine LIFE without the life-saving and time- saving methods of modern science....but the devil in the details is the developing in wisdom and discernment of what not to do with it in order to contain the diabolical nature that is also present in the new scientific discoveries.

andy_d · 07-16-2003, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leyline
if the angels are speaking to me and i dismissed them out of logic

Oh, I wasn't talking about dismissing anything actually. I was just playng devil's advocate and reminding you to keep your options open.

After all, nobody really knows anything for sure, do they?

07-16-2003, 04:34 AM

carol

well i too would not say that technology is all bad. I am not a luddite and after all i am using this technology now......

I agree that we are creating all the time and each thing however small can have many consequences. A sound, a cup of tea, a new machine, whatever. But the emotional relationship for me is far 'closer' to the spiritual than the rational. It is feel as compared to description. A way of being with a place as compared to a map of it.

Of course they shouldn't be seperated and are much more powerful and spiritual when combined. But it is when the rational becomes quieter and part of the background that i feel the spiritual comes through more strongly.

I get the feeling in your writing that the world looks like a magical, confusing, exhilerating place where enthusiasm and creativity are never far from your heart.

..... but i don't think we should underestimate the impact of tv and radio upon our lives. To relate to a programme about something is very different to relating to the thing directly, and i fear that many people are losing the latter relationship to our physical world and we are losing precious aspects of our physical world as a direct result. The protests simply become another tv programme. The physical world a transitory space between two cathode ray tubes. I know i have been affected by it.

07-16-2003, 04:41 AM

andy

as for a respect for open mindedness i think i probably go too far as i have already said in this thread.

it can lead to a lack of commitment and belief if we are not careful.

"After all, nobody really knows anything for sure, do they?"

well if you were sat on a hill one night with a couple of mates and suddenly the arch angel gabriel appeared to you all, wouldn't you know it for sure? lol

this is what i am exploring, the relationship between the physical and the spiritual.

Carol Massey · 07-16-2003, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leyline
I get the feeling in your writing that the world looks like a magical, confusing, exhilerating place where enthusiasm and creativity are never far from your heart.

..... but i don't think we should underestimate the impact of tv and radio upon our lives. To relate to a programme about something is very different to relating to the thing directly, and i fear that many people are losing the latter relationship to our physical world and we are losing precious aspects of our physical world as a direct result. The protests simply become another tv programme. The physical world a transitory space between two cathode ray tubes. I know i have been affected by it.

Every word of that would be true, leyline. The beautiful aspect of the internet is that it is providing a way for people from all over the world to communicate in real time for the first time. The freedom that exists today to speak your heretical mind without the threat of physical and/or psychological harm is no small thing. First time in history as far as I know.

I think the greater we are influenced by this global redefinition and realize that all people are our neighbors, the less the hold any government has on us. Underneath the facade of nationalism, there is a global soverignty that is developing between human beings. I am less likely to support my government wanting to blame and maim if I know someone on a personal level, and find that their dreams and challenges aren't unlike mine.

TV and radio....I rarely even turn them on, but I understand what you're saying about them and agree whole-heartedly.

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07-15-2003, 06:50 AM	#54
Carol Massey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Springfield Missouri Posts: 86	Goodmorning emotional, "IF" everything ended in the grave, it would be logical and sane to fear death; however, I'm not buying that my identity is defined by ego (a momentary sense of a separate, autonomous self). Paradoxically, there is also a Self which I know (but remain largely unconscious of) residing within/behind the temporary ego. The little I do know is this: My ego rides the waves of the ocean of Self. I think that's the "aha" within the often quoted saying: "I am that I am", meaning I am that which I am, or also, pointing to another, "I am that -> I am"....meaning you, dear emotional. Talking to myself here, so I hope you do not take it personally. Another way that I understand relationship is this: By your own name here in the forum, I assume that emotion would be how you normally relate to the world, as your superior (most often used and conscious) function....I might be to you, your inferior (thinking function) projected outward. On the other hand, if "thinking" is my superior function, then you would represent to me emotion as my inferior function, projected outwardly. Bye now! Off to work with me.

07-15-2003, 10:10 AM	#55
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	andy "Or maybe you're just choosing to communicate with yourself by interpreting the things around you as messages to you. Maybe you're your own angel." ooo yeh. there is plenty of room in this world for delusion, and plenty of other ways of looking at what we believe that will suggest just that! lol But if the angels are speaking to me and i dismissed them out of logic, then i would be criticising them for not using block capital letters. who am i to do that? Opera what you have told us shows how the 'physical' can suddenly resonate powerfully with the spiritual. I personally cannot think why such things happen, but then again why should the physical world be necessarily understood through reason alone? Those charged events tell us something more than our own foibles. They are gateways and clues to deeper realisations. They enable us to make special contributions to the world through our special sensitivites. Emotional what i think people like yourself show us by believing in the afterlife (for whatever reason) is a responsibility towards the overall shape of our physical lives. Those who do not believe in life or existence beyond death have a much more difficult time with a relationship to cosmic morality and the power of love beyond our personal relationships. Carol yes the emotional and reasonable are different ways of relating to the physical world. But surely it is the emotional that leads to the spiritual? It has 'feel'. I think it is more and more difficult in the west to relate to the physical world. Our environment has been commercialised and we are encouraged to relate more and more to the virtual.

07-15-2003, 04:02 PM	#56
Carol Massey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Springfield Missouri Posts: 86	Leyline, you said: "yes the emotional and reasonable are different ways of relating to the physical world. But surely it is the emotional that leads to the spiritual? It has 'feel'. I think it is more and more difficult in the west to relate to the physical world. Our environment has been commercialised and we are encouraged to relate more and more to the virtual." I don't understand leyline, the idea of 'leading' -> to that which we all ready are. We are as spiritual as we're ever gonna get, here and now....what we choose to do with the awesome energy that creates and moves us is top priority. We cannot help but create, it is our nature....but what? are we creating, and how? are we doing it, and what? do we need to do, if anything, to alter or change in the way we are doing it? I whole-heartedly agree with the runaway train of technology, although it is not so simple in my mind. There is much good that has come of technological advancement, and I doubt anyone would want to imagine LIFE without the life-saving and time- saving methods of modern science....but the devil in the details is the developing in wisdom and discernment of what not to do with it in order to contain the diabolical nature that is also present in the new scientific discoveries.

07-16-2003, 04:34 AM	#58
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	carol well i too would not say that technology is all bad. I am not a luddite and after all i am using this technology now...... I agree that we are creating all the time and each thing however small can have many consequences. A sound, a cup of tea, a new machine, whatever. But the emotional relationship for me is far 'closer' to the spiritual than the rational. It is feel as compared to description. A way of being with a place as compared to a map of it. Of course they shouldn't be seperated and are much more powerful and spiritual when combined. But it is when the rational becomes quieter and part of the background that i feel the spiritual comes through more strongly. I get the feeling in your writing that the world looks like a magical, confusing, exhilerating place where enthusiasm and creativity are never far from your heart. ..... but i don't think we should underestimate the impact of tv and radio upon our lives. To relate to a programme about something is very different to relating to the thing directly, and i fear that many people are losing the latter relationship to our physical world and we are losing precious aspects of our physical world as a direct result. The protests simply become another tv programme. The physical world a transitory space between two cathode ray tubes. I know i have been affected by it.

07-16-2003, 04:41 AM	#59
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	andy as for a respect for open mindedness i think i probably go too far as i have already said in this thread. it can lead to a lack of commitment and belief if we are not careful. "After all, nobody really knows anything for sure, do they?" well if you were sat on a hill one night with a couple of mates and suddenly the arch angel gabriel appeared to you all, wouldn't you know it for sure? lol this is what i am exploring, the relationship between the physical and the spiritual.

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