Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dargo · 10-23-2002, 06:25 AM

The topic why didn't Jesus fly got my thinking about another question. According to Paul, 500 people (presumably his most loyal followers) saw Jesus after he was resurected. Why would Jesus only show himself to so few? Wouldn't it make sense for him to appear before the city of Jerusalem, surrounded by a host of angels? The whole city probably would have converted immediately if he'd done this! The pharisees would have found themselves stoned if they'd tried to prevent it. You'd think Jesus could have at least stopped in to say hi to Pilate. And if his holiness's schedule wasn't too busy, he could have gone on a world tour spreading the gospel. If there were historical records all over the world of people seeing a deity called Jesus with identical messages from him, then we evil skeptics wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Too bad he was too lazy or too busy to do this. He prefers to let his followers carry the "good news" without any proof to back it up. Of course, even with this much evidence Satan would undoubtedly blind our eyes to the truth. If we won't accept the Bible, how could anything else convince us?

leonarde · 10-23-2002, 06:38 AM

Posted:

Quote:

According to Paul, 500 people (presumably his most loyal followers) saw Jesus after he was resurected. Why would Jesus only show himself to so few? Wouldn't it make sense for him to appear before the city of Jerusalem, surrounded by a host of angels? The whole city probably would have converted immediately if he'd done this!

1)500 people seems a lot to me.

2)Only so many would have been able to recognize
the resurrected Jesus from their day-to-day contact with the pre-crucified one anyway.

3)The spectacular miracles (see raising of Lazarus)seem to have been two-edged swords: leading some to acclaim him, leading others to
say he was doing Satans work/"leading the people
astray" .

4)Since his plan involved sending the Apostles in
his place it was important that they have the
greatest certainty about his resurrection before
they started their own preaching careers.

Cheers!

Kosh · 10-23-2002, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dargo:
 You'd think Jesus could have at least stopped in to say hi to Pilate.

Yeah, great image!

"Hey Pilate, crucify this!"

Bible Humper · 10-23-2002, 10:12 AM

Excellent point, Dargo!

This is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent deity we're talking about here! Anything imaginable was well within his power to effect, and is indeed at this very moment within his power!

The usual defense that the deity doesn't intervene so as to allow us the free will to believe or not is used as an apologetic bolt-hole, a safe place to retreat when the deity's behavior, or rather lack of behavior, is called into question. This can't be used when we are talking about Jesus himself!

Leonarde:

Quote:

1)500 people seems a lot to me.

Well, there is no such thing as "a lot" to the omnipotent deity! Was the message of Jesus of utmost importance or not?

Quote:

2)Only so many would have been able to recognize the resurrected Jesus from their day-to-day contact with the pre-crucified one anyway.

Bull Roar! The deity could have been sure that he had a distinctive enough appearance that there would be no stupid mistakes like this!

There are so many options, consider that the omnipotent deity was not limited to only a single incarnation!

He is already 3 in 1, why not 3 million? He could have personally appeared to each and every village on Earth simultaneously without taxing himself in the least!

Surely a deity who values belief in himself above everything else would be sure to manifest in such a way that maximises his presence!

Otherwise, the deity's single-minded demand for allegiance would appear to be little more than a way for the priest class to answer sticky questions! "The deity loves FAITH above all, if there was any evidence you would merely BELIEVE! Pfah!"

Quote:

3)The spectacular miracles (see raising of Lazarus)seem to have been two-edged swords: leading some to acclaim him, leading others to
say he was doing Satans work/"leading the people
astray" .

Good grief, an old woman can find a pattern in a tortilla that looks vaguely head shaped and pilgrims come from around the world to bow to it, but you're telling me that the deity's avatar can't manage to convince them that he is the real deal???

If nothing else, he could have opened up the sky and had the heavenly host flutter and dance among mankind to both prove himself and give the world a promise of what will be ours beyond the veil of death!

No excuse for the deity!

Quote:

4)Since his plan involved sending the Apostles in
his place it was important that they have the
greatest certainty about his resurrection before
they started their own preaching careers.

Are you saying that the deity had trouble convincing the apostles?

It took all his attention to convince a handful of men that he was a divine being when David Koresh and Jimmy Jones are able to do so?

Bull Roar!

Dargo · 10-23-2002, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:


4)Since his plan involved sending the Apostles in
his place it was important that they have the
greatest certainty about his resurrection before
they started their own preaching careers.

If the President has a message of vital importance for the people of the United States, how would he transmit it to the nation? He could tell the message to a bunch of low-level White House staff members and then send them out to tell the news to the American people. This is an extremely slow and inefficient way to do things. Most people will not believe that this message actually came from the President. This would be especially true if there were other people claiming to be the true messengers of the President and the authentic messengers had no more proof than the phonies. Some of the messengers might distort the message either due to error or to suit their selfish purposes.

The more likely method would be for him to call a press conference. That way everyone can be assured of hearing his actual message promptly and with no doubt as to its authenticity. I realize they did not have television and press conferences back in the first century, but this should be no obstacle to the all-powerful creator of the universe. Due you believe your god to be less capable than President Bush? You really must have a low opinion of him if you do!

Vibr8gKiwi · 10-23-2002, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dargo:
According to Paul, 500 people (presumably his most loyal followers) saw Jesus after he was resurected. Why would Jesus only show himself to so few?

Actually that's assuming a bit much. We don't have 500 witnesses, we have one writer who (years later) claims 500 people saw something (and he didn't even give any names or anything). This same writer wasn't even a witness himself ('cept for his supposed "vision" again much later).

If anyone thinks that one person claiming something at a much later time is the same as 500 people claiming something, I swear I heard of 500 people 20 years ago who saw you before your sex change.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]

Bible Humper · 10-23-2002, 01:24 PM

That's true, Vibr8gKiwi, but it's probably best to throw them a bone and take the 500 for granted for the sake of argument, since it is still a rather astonishingly feeble accomplishment for a 33 year ordeal on Earth by an omnimax deity.

lpetrich · 10-23-2002, 01:29 PM

And these 500 people may only have had visions or other such experiences.

Deadend · 10-23-2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

From Jonathan I. Israel's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0198206089/qid%3Dthesecularweb/002-6547795-5216868" target="_blank">Radical Enlightenment</a>:
Jaquelot insisted no less on the empirical nature of the evidence for Christ's miracles and, while admitting that Christ did not show himself to the people after the Resurrection, so that the grounding of that event might seem less robust than it would had he done so, he explains this by saying God wants men to believe on the basis of faith, rather than empirical evidence alone, for there is always someone who might question the latter. Had Christ shown himself to the Pharisees and the people, he asks why would we have more reason to believe them than we already have for believing the Apostles?" The Sorbonne professor Jean Denyse, in his widely acclaimed rebuttal of incredulity, La V�rit� de la religion Chr�tienne demonstr�e par ordre g�ometrigue (Paris 1717), similarly elevates the Apostles' eyewitness accounts of Christ's miracles and Resurrection above all other grounds for belief, the incontrovertible evidence which 'met fin � tous les raisonnements des incr�dules et des ath�es'. Denyse's V�rit� was ranked by the Berlin savant Jean-Henri Samuel Formey (1711-97) as one of the three foremost defences of Christianity of the age—together with Abbadie's Trait� and Houtteville's La Religion Chr�tienne prouv�e par les faits all three of which principally combat Spinoza, seeing him as the prime author of philosophical incredulity.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Deadend ]

MortalWombat · 10-23-2002, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
And these 500 people may only have had visions or other such experiences.

Especially since Paul uses the same verb "ophthe" (appeared) to describe Jesus' appearance to himself (in a revelation or vision) as well as the 500 and all the apostles.

10-23-2002, 06:25 AM	#1
Dargo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 713	Why would Jesus only appear to 500 people? The topic why didn't Jesus fly got my thinking about another question. According to Paul, 500 people (presumably his most loyal followers) saw Jesus after he was resurected. Why would Jesus only show himself to so few? Wouldn't it make sense for him to appear before the city of Jerusalem, surrounded by a host of angels? The whole city probably would have converted immediately if he'd done this! The pharisees would have found themselves stoned if they'd tried to prevent it. You'd think Jesus could have at least stopped in to say hi to Pilate. And if his holiness's schedule wasn't too busy, he could have gone on a world tour spreading the gospel. If there were historical records all over the world of people seeing a deity called Jesus with identical messages from him, then we evil skeptics wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Too bad he was too lazy or too busy to do this. He prefers to let his followers carry the "good news" without any proof to back it up. Of course, even with this much evidence Satan would undoubtedly blind our eyes to the truth. If we won't accept the Bible, how could anything else convince us?

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10-23-2002, 01:24 PM	#7
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	That's true, Vibr8gKiwi, but it's probably best to throw them a bone and take the 500 for granted for the sake of argument, since it is still a rather astonishingly feeble accomplishment for a 33 year ordeal on Earth by an omnimax deity.

10-23-2002, 01:29 PM	#8
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	And these 500 people may only have had visions or other such experiences.

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