Freethought & Rationalism Archive

notMichaelJackson · 08-07-2003, 09:16 AM

Virtually all high schools in the United States will suspend two students who enter a fight, no matter what the reason. Let's say that Student A attacks Student B in such a way that would cause student B to have serious health problems for life (such as shoving him or her into a hot water heater, and holding him or her there for a few minutes). Student B would then have to make a choice: fight back and be suspended, or suffer from bodily injury.

Why do schools have policies as insane as this?

The Other Michael · 08-07-2003, 10:44 AM

You might expand on what problems you see with that policy, just to get the discussional ball rolling.

cheers,
Michael
MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

scigirl · 08-07-2003, 10:57 AM

I have a problem with using suspension from school as a punishment for any reason. All they do is sit at home and play video games (at least in my experience). If anything, they should be given extra days in the summer or something!

scigirl

Autonemesis · 08-07-2003, 11:01 AM

These school suspension policies are just specific cases of the general malaise affliciting schools called "Zero Tolerance". What sort of message does it send kids when their own teachers tell them they are powerless to override the policy and make a judgment call, case-by-case?

The purpose of zero tolerance is to create just such a stifling environment, to cow dissent, to indoctrinate students that "You can't beat the system, don't even try, you will get crushed. Neither your teacher, nor even your parents can help you. Submit or perish."

Mageth · 08-07-2003, 11:02 AM

I have a problem with using suspension from school as a punishment for any reason.

I don't think I'd go that far. My wife (a teacher) once had a student make death threats (with details about how he planned to do it) against her to another student, who fortunately told a teacher.

At a minimum, getting the student out of the school for a while seemed a prudent action.

callmejay · 08-07-2003, 11:50 AM

It's ridiculous, and it's a political problem. Fucking politicians like to look like they're doing something so they institute these asinine "mandatory" policies. They do it for courts too, with "mandatory minimums." Self-defense is possibly the most important right people have, since without that all the rights in the world might not do you any good.

enfant terrible · 08-07-2003, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notMichaelJackson
Student B would then have to make a choice: fight back and be suspended, or suffer from bodily injury.

Why are you so sure he will not be suspended if he does not fight back?

Rusting Car Bumper · 08-07-2003, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notMichaelJackson
Virtually all high schools in the United States will suspend two students who enter a fight, no matter what the reason. Let's say that Student A attacks Student B in such a way that would cause student B to have serious health problems for life (such as shoving him or her into a hot water heater, and holding him or her there for a few minutes). Student B would then have to make a choice: fight back and be suspended, or suffer from bodily injury.

Why do schools have policies as insane as this?

Some don't.

Read this excerpt:

Quote:

A new state law requires school districts to take a stance on whether students can claim self-defense and to include that policy in student conduct guidelines for the 2003-04 school year.

Some districts, such as Dallas, say self-defense is no excuse for fighting. It's never been a factor in determining a student's punishment for fighting, Dallas schools officials said, and that won't change.

"In almost every fight, someone's going to claim, 'I was defending myself,' and it just puts the administrators in a situation to make a judgment call that somebody won't like," said Donny Claxton, spokesman for Dallas schools. "This way, it's just clear cut."

But McKinney schools officials, for example, recently revised the student code to say that administrators will consider explanations of self-defense from students who fight or are involved in instances of assault.

Schools must take a stand on self-defense

DC

notMichaelJackson · 08-07-2003, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Michael
You might expand on what problems you see with that policy, just to get the discussional ball rolling.

I don�t understand why a student who defends himself or herself from a physical attack should be suspended, especially if he or she really has no choice, as in my waterheater example. I�m not against punishing people for fighting, but if you can�t escape the conflict and will face physiological problems for the rest of your life if you don�t defend yourself, why should you be punished for self defense?

I was kicked in the groin my freshman year of high school, but did not strike back, but if I had, both the kicker and I would have been suspended for at least one day. What if he had kept attacking me? Why should I have been suspended for self defense?

Quote:

Originally posted by enfant terrible
Why are you so sure he will not be suspended if he does not fight back?

Sadly, some schools probably would suspend a student simply for being hit.

Beetle · 08-08-2003, 02:43 PM

Part of the reason for the usual "suspend everybody" policy might be that school administrators just don't have the time to conduct an investigation of every fight that takes place. If students are allowed to claim self-defense, then the school has to determine if they really have grounds for that claim. One kid could start punching another in the face and when caught claim falsely that the other kid started it. Now the school has to play Columbo. So it's simpler (not necessarily better) for them to just send everybody home.

08-07-2003, 09:16 AM	#1
notMichaelJackson Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: IL Posts: 552	School Suspension Policies Virtually all high schools in the United States will suspend two students who enter a fight, no matter what the reason. Let's say that Student A attacks Student B in such a way that would cause student B to have serious health problems for life (such as shoving him or her into a hot water heater, and holding him or her there for a few minutes). Student B would then have to make a choice: fight back and be suspended, or suffer from bodily injury. Why do schools have policies as insane as this?

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08-07-2003, 10:44 AM	#2
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	You might expand on what problems you see with that policy, just to get the discussional ball rolling. cheers, Michael MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

08-07-2003, 10:57 AM	#3
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	I have a problem with using suspension from school as a punishment for any reason. All they do is sit at home and play video games (at least in my experience). If anything, they should be given extra days in the summer or something! scigirl

08-07-2003, 11:01 AM	#4
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	These school suspension policies are just specific cases of the general malaise affliciting schools called "Zero Tolerance". What sort of message does it send kids when their own teachers tell them they are powerless to override the policy and make a judgment call, case-by-case? The purpose of zero tolerance is to create just such a stifling environment, to cow dissent, to indoctrinate students that "You can't beat the system, don't even try, you will get crushed. Neither your teacher, nor even your parents can help you. Submit or perish."

08-07-2003, 11:02 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	*I have a problem with using suspension from school as a punishment for any* reason.** I don't think I'd go that far. My wife (a teacher) once had a student make death threats (with details about how he planned to do it) against her to another student, who fortunately told a teacher. At a minimum, getting the student out of the school for a while seemed a prudent action.

08-07-2003, 11:50 AM	#6
callmejay Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 466	It's ridiculous, and it's a political problem. Fucking politicians like to look like they're doing something so they institute these asinine "mandatory" policies. They do it for courts too, with "mandatory minimums." Self-defense is possibly the most important right people have, since without that all the rights in the world might not do you any good.

08-08-2003, 02:43 PM	#10
Beetle Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Massachusetts State Home for the Bewildered Posts: 961	Part of the reason for the usual "suspend everybody" policy might be that school administrators just don't have the time to conduct an investigation of every fight that takes place. If students are allowed to claim self-defense, then the school has to determine if they really have grounds for that claim. One kid could start punching another in the face and when caught claim falsely that the other kid started it. Now the school has to play Columbo. So it's simpler (not necessarily better) for them to just send everybody home.

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