Tony

Hi everybody,
Some people need religion, some don’t.
I have respect for everybody's believes if only those believes not used against other people.
Personally, I don't believe in religion and I don't need one.
I studied science, logic, psychology and philosophy. Also, I was brought up in non-religious environment. Everybody in my family has respect for everybody else. My questions got answers based on logic and science. So, naturally, it was easy for me to choose not to believe in anything, that I can't logically explain to myself. Basically, I don't believe in anything. I know or I don't know. If I don't know - I don't make up the answers. I just say – I don’t know the answer. Sometimes it’s not easy. Someone has to be brave to live with unknown. In my opinion that’s how a religion developed. People couldn’t explain the nature, so they created religion.
Humanity is still very young. Only a few thousand years ago first signs of civilization started to appear. Only a few hundred years ago people learned that Earth is round. Only a hundred years ago psychology started to develop with Freud, Jung, Adler and others. Only 58 years ago the worst war ended. And DNA was decoded just a few weeks ago.
We, as a civilization, are "babies". We're still in very early stage of development. (Overgrowing of religion is one of the major parts of our civilization’s development.)
But we're getting there. More and more people begin to understand that they can live without religion because they don't need one.
People, who believe in religion, will eventually learn that they can be happy, kind and loving without believing in super power. They can be even happier because they will be more independent, more responsible for their lives and lives of their loved ones, and less confused about major values in life. They will have much less conflicts with reality. Everybody has some illusions about life. If someone has fewer illusions, he/she will have fewer disappointments.
I consider religious people as victims of religious propaganda. Most of them didn’t have a choice in their childhood. They were forced to study religion. Their parents are victims too. And so on.
After people will become free of religion they will spend more time with their families, friends and relatives instead of spending time for religious rituals. Instead of making some not very honest people rich by giving them hard earned money, these people will give their money to their families or to people who are in a real need.
Especially, lately, responsible parents, I hope, will be more careful and try not to trust their children to child molesters and their religious bosses who cover them from the justice (which is also a crime).
Also, some governments use religion to influence naïve people. It makes it easier for these governments to divide and control their citizens.
Still many people get hurt and killed because of other people who use religion for their purposes. But it’s much less compare to the horror of crimes committed by religious bosses just a few centuries ago.
That’s why humanists have to continue to educate religious people, so nobody will take advantage of them.
The best thing is - the worst religious domination is over.
So, there is a hope that humanity will survive. Slowly, but surely our civilization is coming out of the horror of dark ages.
In my opinion, it’s just matter of time and development of education and science.
I’m very thankful to people who organized and maintains this site.
Good luck to our civilization!

luvluv

I don't think the essential question is "do you need religion" the question is "is religion true"?

In my proffesional life, I don't need geometry or any math more advanced than the simple multiplication it takes to figure up my hours at the end of the week. Doesn't mean that higher math isn't real, or true, or in some sense binding on me.

The bottom line is, if it is true, you do need it, whether you realize it or not.

And your belief that everyone will be happier without a belief in God is kind of wishful thinking. The majority of humankind gets dealt a terrible hand at birth and lives a life of mostly hard labor with few laughs in between. Those people are going to be happier thinking that this is their only shot at happiness? They will be happy knowing there is no logical reason for hope, and embracing despair? Life based on logic has no room for hope, as hope is by definition an unjustified belief. So some quadraplegic is supposed to be happier knowing that this life he has without limbs is the only life he'll ever know?

I'm not saying that this is a particularly good reason to believe, only that it is naive in the extreme to think that EVERYONE will be happier without a belief in a God or an afterlife. Religion would not have lasted quite so long if this were true. Sure your Western European with a high standard of living living in a free state where his individual liberty is protected, and who can freely pursue intellectual, sexual, and proffesional goals, and achieve most of them, and live a life where most of his essential needs are satisfied, might not find the prospect of this life being the only life there is unpleasant.

But how about a slave living in the 1700's years ago? He will only know a lifetime of hard labor, working 14-16 hours a day six days a week for the rest of his life, no freedom, no opportunity for education, his sexual appetites are severely restricted, if it is a woman, she is subject to being raped routinely, as well as beaten and physically abused, and this is the one life they are ever going to get. These people are supposed to be happier without a belief in God or the possibility of an afterlife?

Jobar

Hello Tony; welcome to Internet Infidels.

I'm going to move your thread to our General Religious Discussions forum.

lpetrich

I wonder what luvluv's point is.

That religion is desirable as the Opium of the People?

The idea of organized religion as a socially-useful fraud goes back to Greco-Roman antiquity, where it was common among those who liked to write books.

Plato in his Republic proposed that his ideal community have a "royal lie" religion custom-made for the purpose, one which would "demonstrate" the legitimacy of its philosopher-rulers.

And his society's sacred books would be banned from it, because they contain numerous bad examples, like heroes lamenting and gods laughing. Imagine one of us suggesting banning the Bible for that reason.

And wouldn't it be better to try to make life better for people in this world than tell lies about some next world? Especially when those lies do not seem to offer much consolation. Not many people have as last words "See you in heaven", and not many people seem eager to go there.

And the common apologist posture of dogmatic agnosticism is just that -- a posture.

Grad Student Humanist

Great post. Nothing more can be said. You've covered all the bases.

Tony

Hi luvluv,
Thank you for your reply.
Well, I don’t need religion. Science, psychology and logic give me all answers I need. My philosophy is real and based on science and logic. Since I don’t have any super power to look after me, to tell me what to do, I have to be responsible for myself and my family. All my achievements – are MY achievements. All my mistakes – are MY mistakes. Of course, there is some luck involved. But luck doesn’t happen all the time. You have to work hard to achieve your goals.

Here is an example. Remember Charlie Chaplin’s movie where he walked on the rope in a circus and monkeys were all over him? He thought that he had a safety rope attached to a special belt. So, he started to dance and jump on the rope like he would on the floor. He didn’t know that the rope untied somehow and he was dancing very dangerously. After he realized that the rope is not connected to the belt, he’s got much more cautious and slowly returned to safety.
When someone goes through his/her life and depends on the safety rope, its better be real and many times inspected rope. If someone thinks that the rope exists and reliable, someone tends to be less careful. If the rope exists – it’s very good. What if it’s not? What if someone relies on something that doesn’t exist? There is couple of options and they are not good at all:
1) Someone falls.
2) Someone doesn’t work as hard as he/she should because they rely on the non existent help or they rely on a luck (which is unpredictable).

So, to me this life – is the only one I’ve got and I have to live it to the fullest.
Memento Mori – "Remember, you will die..."
I understand it as – live your life to the fullest. Don’t save your love, kindness and energy for afterlife. It just might not happen.
Luvluv, you said that if religion is true, you do need it, whether you realize it or not. What if it’s not? So I don’t need it? OK. It’s fine with me.
I’m sure that everyone will be happier without religion. It’s not going to happen immediately. Someone has to learn a lot of science, psychology and logic and to be brave enough to realize, that there is no super power to look after them. Someone has to understand that this life is the only shot they’ve got and to make the best of it. It doesn’t come easy.
If we talking about seriously ill people – well to make them feel better, of course, we can lie. If we talking about majority of humankind – it is different story. Instead of working like slaves and hoping for better life after death, they have to take matter in their own hands and try to change their work conditions and life to better. That’s how workers got better work conditions in developed countries. It didn’t happen because of the kindness of the plant owners. This battle is ongoing.
Now if we talking about me. I was born in former Soviet Union. So, I can be considered Eastern European, not Western. I grow up in NOT democratic country. It was not bad, if you don’t say anything against the government or the Communist Party. But if you say – you go to prison or prison-like psychiatric hospital. You will never get a decent job, your family and friends will suffer. It was much worse, than it was in United States during McCarty craziness in 1950’s.

I served in Soviet Army because I had to. I had no choice. For 18 months I had no good food. I had no meat at all. My breakfast was: two slices of bread, to small sugar cubes and worm glass of brown water that they called “tea”. We didn’t have forks, so we don’t kill each other or officers. My colonel used to say: “I’m your czar, God and Minister of Defense”. Officers abused soldiers. Older solders abused younger soldiers. Any officer could send any soldier to military prison for any reason or without any reason. I was in a military prison for 3 days. We were sent to patrol nearby city. We didn’t have white belts. They were stolen by older solders. We just had regular brown belts. We said to our regiment officer on duty, that we will be send to prison for not having white belts. The officer said that he doesn’t care. So, when we came to headquarters, instead of patrolling the city, we were sent to prison. It was on Friday evening. Military clerks went home for the weekend. Nobody could do paperwork. Because of that we didn’t get any food till Monday. We got just a couple of glasses of water per day. The prison room for arrested was very small. It had just wooden area instead of beds. We tried to figure out how to sleep on it. When we lied on that area on our backs, shoulder to shoulder, we could fit only 9 guys. Guess how many soldiers were in that room? 21!
Every hour during night we had to be counted. It was hard for guard to count us. We looked like bunch of seals on ice.
During my first 6 months of service 3 soldiers of my regiment committed suicide or killed. Nobody knows for sure. I personally talked out of committing suicide at least one soldier. One of the officers was so bad, that I seriously considered a plan of killing him. Fortunately for him and me, I was transferred to another regiment.
About people who were slaves a few centuries ago I want to say that they had to fight. Not only them, who lived at that time and that place. At any time and in any place a human being had to fight and still has to fight for his/her freedom. It’s not easy for me to say. But someone has to fight for their freedom. Or run from there. If someone knows that there is no super power or afterlife – they will take matter in their own hands. Because they have only two choices – be slave or fight for freedom.
Some slaves fought for their freedom. They are heroes. They didn’t wait for help from super power. Because of their fight we have fewer slaves in the world. Because of their and other brave people struggle we have more democracy now than before.
You’re talking about abused and raped women during slavery. What about women burned alive during Inquisition times as witches? What about girls castrated in Africa for some religious purposes? In some religions woman is not considered equal to man even today. They have no rights, they can’t vote, etc.
That’s why I think that humanity will be happier without religion.

SimplyAtheistic

You bring up a great point. People who wrote the bible and people who were alive during biblical times didn't live in a luxurious world. They knew a fair amount of suffering and the general population had a poor lifestyle. They hated their lives, so why not write a book to inspire people to believe in some "life after death" The situation was ripe, everything was in place, it was a perfect time for religion to spread religion and have it accepted. These days when more people live comfortable lives, we no longer need religion so badly and therefore more people can question it and realize how false it truly is.
Jake

Amie

Hi Tony
I could not agree more
I wish more people could have your mutual respect for people regardless what they believe. You sound like you have a great family! And you sound like a sweetie!
take care...
Amie~

GrandDesigner

I studied science, logic, psychology and philosophy. Also, I was brought up in non-religious environment.

I dont know you, but I can imagine you have your own belief system.

A lot of the time, religious sects started out with a few people how believed the same way. Logic, for example, is something you've studied. A couple millenia ago, it may have seemed 'logical' that there is a higher being. And maybe, a few people, wandering around, shared their beliefs and realized they 'felt' the same way about things. They talk more and more and meet more people and so forth. Thats how it starts and I'm sure it's meant in the same interests. Thats fine and dandy until some people there, or who come into the system, decide they can profit or govern people using what they believe.

So, yes, I believe everyone, needing to or not, has their own belief system, whether atheist or theist or agnostic or anything. But no, people dont need to be taken advantage of.

luvluv

HA!

Anyway, to reply to old "I'm so much better than you I must talk to you in the third person" over here:

Yeah, you usually do.

My point was that it is unrealistic to think there will EVER be a world so congenial to everyone that people will forfeit their right to believe in another world. I actually said within the post that I was not supporting religion on those grounds nor did I find religion supportable on those grounds (of course, you've never put a whole lot of thought into what anything I post actually SAYS, so why am I surprised?). I simply was speaking to how unrealistic and utopian Tony's original point was.

But thanks for taking this in the most stereotypical and non productive direction this post could possibly take. But for your consistent efforts, there might have been some productive dialouge here instead of some good old fashion "castigate the theist" mudslinging. Once again, you have managed to snatch pointless antagonism from the jaws of meaningful discourse. A rational discussion was narrowly avoided here today, and America has you to thank for it.

Tony:

a) What, precisely, does science, psychology, and logic tell you?

b) What if science and psychology are ultimately COMPELTELY WRONG on one or two major points?

c) How do you know they are not?

You cannot divorce what you "need" ultimately, from what is. You may not need religion NOW, but if it turns out that at your death you will find that Christianity was true, you will certainly need religion THEN. That's my point. You may not need Christianity to be happy and satisfied, that doesn't mean that Christianity is not true. And if Christianity is true you cannot be certainty that since you are comfortable and content NOW, without Christianity, that you will continue to be so forever.