Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nataraja · 10-12-2002, 08:34 PM

Thomas Jefferson was ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY NOT a Christian or a deist or any other breed of nutcase.
Thank you.

<a href="http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm</a>

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Nataraja ]</p>

Toto · 10-12-2002, 11:10 PM

Jefferson is usually classed as a Deist, since he believed in a Divine Creator of the universe, but Deists were not nutcases.

Alonzo Fyfe · 10-13-2002, 06:32 AM

Here's something else that I think is worth repeating.

It doesn't matter!

There is no valid argument form that says, "Jefferson approved of X, therefore X is good." Or "Jefferson rejected X, therefore X is bad."

The goodness or badness of a thing -- such as the treatment of atheist citizens by their government -- has no logical relationship whatsoever to what Jefferson believed.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

Daggah · 10-13-2002, 07:37 AM

Nataraja, I object to your implication that belief in any type of religion makes one a nutcase. It makes one incorrect, but the nutcases are the ones who take religion to the extreme - i.e., religious fundamentalism.

And certainly deism could NEVER be considered a 'breed of nutcase.' At worst it should be considered the mixture of ignorance and rationalism.

Daggah · 10-13-2002, 07:39 AM

P.S. You claim that Jefferson was not a deist, but from your own link:

Quote:

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time).

Nataraja · 10-13-2002, 12:59 PM

So he was a deist.

No, I don't consider all religious people nutcases or bad or stupid or anything else of that nature. I often talk doodoo about them, but I understand that most of them really aren't, well, dumb. That was really for those people who use any inkling of evidence that he may have believed in something that is rejected by most scientific minds as hopelessly supernatural to convince themselves that Jefferson was really a Born Again Christian who wanted the clergy, particularly their clergy, to control the government.

Nataraja · 10-13-2002, 01:05 PM

Quote:

The goodness or badness of a thing -- such as the treatment of atheist citizens by their government -- has no logical relationship whatsoever to what Jefferson believed.

It does have a lot to do with what the Constitution really says. That's a big issue for some people.

dangin · 10-14-2002, 05:15 AM

I love Jefferson as much as the next infidel, more perhaps. But during his presidency he used federal funds to hire priests to send to "civilized", already converted native american communities.

These were not missionary types seeking conversions, they were going to already converted populations. The strategy was that keeping these priests in the house, reduced the chance of having an uprising from said natives.

It was the 1805 "faith based initiative".

Absolutely drives me crazy, but it happened.

You can read about it in "Sworn on the Altar of God: The religious biography of TJ" Which is a really good book, and spends most of it's pages reinforcing the historical truth of TJ's deism, and his disbelief that Jebus was god.

Nataraja · 10-14-2002, 06:40 AM

No president was ever perfect or altogether not a criminal. That's against the nature of politicians.

Toto · 10-14-2002, 08:12 AM

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802801560/qid=1034612067/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Sworn on the Altar of God: A Religious Biography of Thomas Jefferson (Library of Religious Biography)</a>

10-12-2002, 08:34 PM	#1
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	It's worth repeating Thomas Jefferson was ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY NOT a Christian or a deist or any other breed of nutcase. Thank you. <a href="http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm</a> [ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Nataraja ]</p>

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10-12-2002, 11:10 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Jefferson is usually classed as a Deist, since he believed in a Divine Creator of the universe, but Deists were not nutcases.

10-13-2002, 06:32 AM	#3
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	Here's something else that I think is worth repeating. It doesn't matter! There is no valid argument form that says, "Jefferson approved of X, therefore X is good." Or "Jefferson rejected X, therefore X is bad." The goodness or badness of a thing -- such as the treatment of atheist citizens by their government -- has no logical relationship whatsoever to what Jefferson believed. [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

10-13-2002, 07:37 AM	#4
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Nataraja, I object to your implication that belief in any type of religion makes one a nutcase. It makes one incorrect, but the nutcases are the ones who take religion to the extreme - i.e., religious fundamentalism. And certainly deism could NEVER be considered a 'breed of nutcase.' At worst it should be considered the mixture of ignorance and rationalism.

10-13-2002, 12:59 PM	#6
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	So he was a deist. No, I don't consider all religious people nutcases or bad or stupid or anything else of that nature. I often talk doodoo about them, but I understand that most of them really aren't, well, dumb. That was really for those people who use any inkling of evidence that he may have believed in something that is rejected by most scientific minds as hopelessly supernatural to convince themselves that Jefferson was really a Born Again Christian who wanted the clergy, particularly their clergy, to control the government.

10-14-2002, 05:15 AM	#8
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	I love Jefferson as much as the next infidel, more perhaps. But during his presidency he used federal funds to hire priests to send to "civilized", already converted native american communities. These were not missionary types seeking conversions, they were going to already converted populations. The strategy was that keeping these priests in the house, reduced the chance of having an uprising from said natives. It was the 1805 "faith based initiative". Absolutely drives me crazy, but it happened. You can read about it in "Sworn on the Altar of God: The religious biography of TJ" Which is a really good book, and spends most of it's pages reinforcing the historical truth of TJ's deism, and his disbelief that Jebus was god.

10-14-2002, 06:40 AM	#9
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	No president was ever perfect or altogether not a criminal. That's against the nature of politicians.

10-14-2002, 08:12 AM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802801560/qid=1034612067/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Sworn on the Altar of God: A Religious Biography of Thomas Jefferson (Library of Religious Biography)</a>

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