Freethought & Rationalism Archive

babelfish · 07-25-2002, 11:08 AM

I wanted so very much to answer your survey, and I did on the above referenced thread, but I fear my answers got lost in the shuffle.

1. How does atheism define "Love"?
Oh that's easy...wait...love is...love is...there's gotta be a book somewhere that explains "love."

2. Does atheism command or advocate "love" among atheists?

Nope!

3. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in between atheists and Christians?

No, that's really strange though, now that I think about it....why do I feel love? Nobody is commanding me to feel it, so how come I do?

4. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in a universal sense?

No, I can be free to love or hate anyone I want to. I don't have to love you, or blonde people, or short people. Wow! I see what you're getting at now! If I wanted to I could go down the street to some stranger's house and just kill anyone I want to because I don't "love" them! I think I'm beginning to see what you're getting at now!

5. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage hate. Yes or No? Please explain.

NO! NO IT DOESN'T! Oh my God, where's my Bible, quick! I'm beginning to have an overwhelming urge to go out and kill somebody!!!!!

6. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage prejudice and bigotry. Yes or No? Please explain.

OH NO! How could I have been so blind?!?! I hate all blondes and short people, and there is nothing to stop me from these feelings! (I'm in the basement now, still looking for my Bible...I know it's down here somewhere.....)

7. Atheism has no command against violence. Yes or no?

AAAAACK! I can't find my damn Bible anywhere! But wait, what's this at the bottom of this box? Oh, look, it's my rifle! Wow, I've been looking for this for ages! Those short blondes better start headin' for the hills!

Walter_Mitty · 07-25-2002, 11:41 AM

Dear Mr. Matthews:

Atheism is not a belief system. Belief systems dictate actions, atheism does not. The only shared opinion among atheists is the nonexistence of a deity.

I use my reason based on facts to decide that which to love and that which to hate. In your case--and based on the evidence--I am greatly amused.

Sincerely,

Bibliophile

(Ex-Christian)

diana · 07-27-2002, 02:39 PM

babelfish,

That's beautiful.

I think I'll frame it.

d

David Mathews · 07-27-2002, 06:29 PM

Hello babelfish,

Thanks for your post & answers to my questions.

Let's just clarify one thing: As an atheist you are allowed to be prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise hateful to anyone else or any group of people for any reason?

That is a Yes/No or True/False question, but any commentary on your part is appreciated.

Love,

David Mathews

Viti · 07-27-2002, 10:04 PM

Allowed by whom? There are no rules of atheism, no heirarchy, so who is there to "command" or "allow" anything?

LadyShea
Supreme Commander
Atheism

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

HelenM · 07-28-2002, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Let's just clarify one thing: As an atheist you are allowed to be prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise hateful to anyone else or any group of people for any reason?

David

If I come across a theist who is prejudiced, bigoted or hateful to a person or group for any reason should I infer that means he/she is "allowed" to be that way or not?

When you say "allowed" in connection with atheists, who would be doing the "allowing" or not allowing? Themselves? Their employer? The government? Other people? Whoever it is maybe you should ask them whether they allow it or not...

love
Helen

diana · 07-28-2002, 08:45 AM

David Matthews,

I see you're very busy, so I allow for the possibility that you may have forgotten about our conversation. In your leisure time, please return to <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000814&p=2" target="_blank">this thread</a> and answer my questions.

Thank you.

d

David Mathews · 07-28-2002, 06:19 PM

Hello Helen,

Quote:

If I come across a theist who is prejudiced, bigoted or hateful to a person or group for any reason should I infer that means he/she is "allowed" to be that way or not?

David: The existence of bigotry in a believer does not necessarily mean that the religious group allows, condones or promotes bigotry. The group may very well teach and promote prejudice and bigotry among its members, but an outsider cannot know that for certain until the group's teachings and customs are examined in detail.

Quote:

When you say "allowed" in connection with atheists, who would be doing the "allowing" or not allowing? Themselves? Their employer? The government? Other people? Whoever it is maybe you should ask them whether they allow it or not...

David: The person who allows an atheists to harbor prejudice and bigotry is the atheist himself/herself. Atheism as a movement may also harbor prejudice and bigotry against Christianity if these atttitudes are routinely expressed among atheists in the casual conversations regarding their lack of God-belief.

Love,

David Mathews

Novowels · 07-29-2002, 12:03 AM

Interesting.

Of course atheism does not advocate love or hatred. What kind of love- or hatred for that matter- would it be if it were forced? Could an emotion that is commanded be true? If I am told that I must love someone, does that not make that love.... Meaningless?

Certainly, emotions can be fostered, they can be encouraged... But commanded?

In my opinion, one must give love freely. A command for emotion makes said emotion meaningless. I believe an atheist, who loves someone because they choose to love, has a far greater and truer love than a Christian who loves "on command."

Thoughts?

-William

HelenM · 07-29-2002, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Hello Helen,

Hello David

Helen: If I come across a theist who is prejudiced, bigoted or hateful to a person or group for any reason should I infer that means he/she is "allowed" to be that way or not?

David: The existence of bigotry in a believer does not necessarily mean that the religious group allows, condones or promotes bigotry. The group may very well teach and promote prejudice and bigotry among its members, but an outsider cannot know that for certain until the group's teachings and customs are examined in detail.

Indeed.

Just as we cannot know whether your approach here is something that your church would endorse or not...and likewise with me although you may have strong opinions about whether mine would endorse mine...

Even if we studied their teachings there are many things that would not tell us about the specific applications of those teachings - because the teachings are often general. I'd say that the best churches do not try to pin down every detail; those who do are probably better called 'cults' because they are trying to take too much control over the lives of their members.

Helen: When you say "allowed" in connection with atheists, who would be doing the "allowing" or not allowing? Themselves? Their employer? The government? Other people? Whoever it is maybe you should ask them whether they allow it or not...

David: The person who allows an atheists to harbor prejudice and bigotry is the atheist himself/herself.

Ok - that was the only answer I could think of, which made any sense of "allowed".

Atheism as a movement may also harbor prejudice and bigotry against Christianity if these atttitudes are routinely expressed among atheists in the casual conversations regarding their lack of God-belief.

Just as Christians can promote, foster and escalate very sentiments which I believe are very unChristian and unedifying, by routinely - say - making fun of a President they see as not supportive of their own agendas. And that's just one example.

love
Helen

07-25-2002, 11:08 AM	#1
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	For Dave: re - "Love & Atheism" I wanted so very much to answer your survey, and I did on the above referenced thread, but I fear my answers got lost in the shuffle. 1. How does atheism define "Love"? Oh that's easy...wait...love is...love is...there's gotta be a book somewhere that explains "love." 2. Does atheism command or advocate "love" among atheists? Nope! 3. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in between atheists and Christians? No, that's really strange though, now that I think about it....why do I feel love? Nobody is commanding me to feel it, so how come I do? 4. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in a universal sense? No, I can be free to love or hate anyone I want to. I don't have to love you, or blonde people, or short people. Wow! I see what you're getting at now! If I wanted to I could go down the street to some stranger's house and just kill anyone I want to because I don't "love" them! I think I'm beginning to see what you're getting at now! 5. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage hate. Yes or No? Please explain. NO! NO IT DOESN'T! Oh my God, where's my Bible, quick! I'm beginning to have an overwhelming urge to go out and kill somebody!!!!! 6. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage prejudice and bigotry. Yes or No? Please explain. OH NO! How could I have been so blind?!?! I hate all blondes and short people, and there is nothing to stop me from these feelings! (I'm in the basement now, still looking for my Bible...I know it's down here somewhere.....) 7. Atheism has no command against violence. Yes or no? AAAAACK! I can't find my damn Bible anywhere! But wait, what's this at the bottom of this box? Oh, look, it's my rifle! Wow, I've been looking for this for ages! Those short blondes better start headin' for the hills!

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07-25-2002, 11:41 AM	#2
Walter_Mitty Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: . Posts: 467	Dear Mr. Matthews: Atheism is not a belief system. Belief systems dictate actions, atheism does not. The only shared opinion among atheists is the nonexistence of a deity. I use my reason based on facts to decide that which to love and that which to hate. In your case--and based on the evidence--I am greatly amused. Sincerely, Bibliophile (Ex-Christian)

07-27-2002, 02:39 PM	#3
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	babelfish, That's beautiful. I think I'll frame it. d

07-27-2002, 06:29 PM	#4
David Mathews Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 622	Hello babelfish, Thanks for your post & answers to my questions. Let's just clarify one thing: As an atheist you are allowed to be prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise hateful to anyone else or any group of people for any reason? That is a Yes/No or True/False question, but any commentary on your part is appreciated. Love, David Mathews

07-27-2002, 10:04 PM	#5
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Allowed by whom? There are no rules of atheism, no heirarchy, so who is there to "command" or "allow" anything? LadyShea Supreme Commander Atheism [ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

07-28-2002, 08:45 AM	#7
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	David Matthews, I see you're very busy, so I allow for the possibility that you may have forgotten about our conversation. In your leisure time, please return to <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000814&p=2" target="_blank">this thread</a> and answer my questions. Thank you. d

07-29-2002, 12:03 AM	#9
Novowels Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,658	Interesting. Of course atheism does not advocate love or hatred. What kind of love- or hatred for that matter- would it be if it were forced? Could an emotion that is commanded be true? If I am told that I must love someone, does that not make that love.... Meaningless? Certainly, emotions can be fostered, they can be encouraged... But commanded? In my opinion, one must give love freely. A command for emotion makes said emotion meaningless. I believe an atheist, who loves someone because they choose to love, has a far greater and truer love than a Christian who loves "on command." Thoughts? -William

07-29-2002, 02:56 AM	#10
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Originally posted by David Mathews: Hello Helen, Hello David Helen: If I come across a theist who is prejudiced, bigoted or hateful to a person or group for any reason should I infer that means he/she is "allowed" to be that way or not? David: The existence of bigotry in a believer does not necessarily mean that the religious group allows, condones or promotes bigotry. The group may very well teach and promote prejudice and bigotry among its members, but an outsider cannot know that for certain until the group's teachings and customs are examined in detail. Indeed. Just as we cannot know whether your approach here is something that your church would endorse or not...and likewise with me although you may have strong opinions about whether mine would endorse mine... Even if we studied their teachings there are many things that would not tell us about the specific applications of those teachings - because the teachings are often general. I'd say that the best churches do not try to pin down every detail; those who do are probably better called 'cults' because they are trying to take too much control over the lives of their members. Helen: When you say "allowed" in connection with atheists, who would be doing the "allowing" or not allowing? Themselves? Their employer? The government? Other people? Whoever it is maybe you should ask them whether they allow it or not... David: The person who allows an atheists to harbor prejudice and bigotry is the atheist himself/herself. Ok - that was the only answer I could think of, which made any sense of "allowed". Atheism as a movement may also harbor prejudice and bigotry against Christianity if these atttitudes are routinely expressed among atheists in the casual conversations regarding their lack of God-belief. Just as Christians can promote, foster and escalate very sentiments which I believe are very unChristian and unedifying, by routinely - say - making fun of a President they see as not supportive of their own agendas. And that's just one example. love Helen

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