diana

Whatever.

They all look the same to me.

d

John Paul

We meet again scigirl...

You might actually be surprised at how many parables, miracles, etc. it would take. But it's not just belief in Christ, but rather acceptance of His gift of forgiveness and letting Him be lord of your life. Even the demons believe that Jesus is Christ, but He is not Lord of their lives...Satan knows more about God than you or I could ever possibly know, but we know he will be punished in the "lake of fire" as Revelation puts it.

It is also fair because (from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong) the only qualifications for entering the kingdom of heaven are :
1- Accepting Christ as savior
2- Accepting Christ as lord of your life

If these two things are accomplished then you are forgiven and will be allowed God's grace. Please someone clarify this for me and everyone else if you know what I'm saying.

The Apostle

John Paul

That's odd....my Bible doesn't say the word "parts" but rather just back. Which version are you reading??

P.S. Does anyone else realize that all the verses dealing with killing someone are about punishments, not about fun things to do on the weekends??

emur

John Paul,

Lord of your life? I know what this really means. Submit to your church leaders based on what THEY think Christ being lord of your life means.

One of the reasons I left evangelical Christianity was that there was too much abuse of power, and I decided that I was NOT going to allow other human beings to dictate to me THEIR ethical standards as the ones I was to live up to. And of course, THEIR standards were to be seen as the standards God expected.

In the final analysis, that is what the lordship issue boils down to.

Mel

scigirl

Hello John Paul!

Welcome to infidels. I do enjoy talking with you--you seem much less dogmatic, and more open to ideas, than some of your friends at the BB. I suppose though you will take that as an insult!

I've heard this many many times. But what does it really "mean"? Can you explain to me what "letting Him be lord of your life" really means without having to quote the Bible? Explain it to me like I was a two-year-old. Examples would be nice. How does this acceptance carry out in the real world? For instance, please give me concrete, real examples. How does this acceptance help you pick jobs, be a better husband or father, etc. Does He speak to you directly after you accept Him? Or rather, do you become enlightened to the right decision after you spend time thinking (praying) about it and talking to other humans about the decision? Is it possible to make those same decisions without the whole "acceptance of Christ" thing?

If you think that Christ helped you make a decision, and someone else who is not a Christian makes the same decision, what was helping him?

Is this acceptance a guarantee that you will know all of the answers? Or, do you still need to use your logic and reason to make decisions? If you still need the logic and reason, than what additional help is the acceptance? Is there any other types of beliefs out there (say, buddhism) which can provide that same additional help? Concrete, real-life examples would be very helpful--"I just feel it's right in my heart" is not going to cut it here.

Does this acceptance have to happen only once, or is it a daily occurence? If a person starts to have doubts, is it because they never "truly" accepted Christ, or is it because living the Christian life is a hard one, which requires frequent re-affirmations? If it does require frequent or daily re-affirmations, than how is this "acceptance of Christ" that more important or helpful than, say a Buddhist who meditates daily to help him make good decisions?

I did used to believe in Jesus and I accepted Him. Now I don't. Some Christians (like most of the BB members) would like to believe that I didn't truly "believe" in the first place. Well, frankly JP, they are full of shit. Sorry for the vulgarities, but that attitude really ticks me off. I would rather they just blame Satan or something, than to call me a liar.

This is how I see the "True Christian" (TM) argument: The Christians in question need to be right, which means that everyone else must be wrong. So if someone used to be a Christian, but now is not, than clearly that person was never really true.

What a bunch of crap. The dogma of Christianity, and the "I'm right you're wrong and thus going to Hell" is truly dangerous. How dare they judge my heart and my mind? They have no clue what I used to be like as a Christian.

I turned away because of many reasons--intellectual and emotional ones. Not because my heart was closed--in fact it was probably too open. One of the reasons I rejected Christianity was because of my intense love for humanity. The idea of Hell for unbelievers seemed inconsistent with the idea of "God is Love." My heart and my mind just couldn't accept a God who supposedly loves us so much that He sacrificed His own son, yet says He will punish non-believers (which includes 6 million Jews who died in the holocaust, many native tribes and cultures who never heard about Jesus, people in third-world countries whose only exposure to Jesus is through missionaries who are often immoral and doing it for the wrong reasons, people like me who need more proof than a musty old text to believe, the list goes on and on). If He did send those people to Hell, than I will never ever worship such an evil being. If He didn't, than obviously your claims that are not true.

Either way, I reject Christianity as being a valid, coherent, and moral belief system.

There are other reasons too. If Christ is the only way into heaven, than why didn't God send his Son to all the continents? I mean, it's the least a benevolent being could do. Also, how could Christ's death on the cross be a "perfect" sacrifice, when in order for this plan to work, humans were required to murder and thus break a commandment? What kind of a crazy plan for salvation must include breaking God's own laws for us?

In addition, the idea that an innocent man becoming murdered for someone else's sins (even if he was the Son of God) is immoral and ludicrous. Would we think the USA was moral and great if we bombed Sweden for Afganistan's errors? Even if Sweden said it was ok? No, the world would hate us. Yet you want me to worship a God whose actions, if he was a human being, we would find reprehensible and evil?

But yet satan still disobeys. Tells you a lot, doesn't it? Obviously complete understanding of God is not enough to make a person become a Christian.

So it's better to not understand, but still believe anyway? I believe that pursuit of truth, no matter how much it hurts, is more noble than believing in something without trying to understand it.

As does the Meat Puppets, covered by Nirvana on the great "Unplugged in NY album."

"Where do bad folks go when they dieeee, "

No I don't understand. It makes no sense to me at all.

Have you ever read Brave New World? In this book, people are cloned and programmed to be certain castes in life. As children, they are subjected to certain sayings over and over, and as adults they will say them whenever it's convenient. I can't think of a good example right now. But the continual Christians claim that "You need to accept Jesus as your Savior" seem very much like those programmed sayings. I sincerely hope that this isn't true for you, but for many Christians who post here, I have a feeling they just spew out these quotes but have never truly tried to understand them.

Don't you mean the Beatle, the real reason for your name? You heathen!

froggie/scigirl

crackrabbit

Groovy. So, using this kind of reasoning, any truly loving parent should kill all their children before the children reach the age of 7 (which I believe is generally considered the "age of reason.") That way, the child is guaranteed a place in Heaven. Right? After all, if they're allowed to grow up, they might decide not to believe in Jesus, and they'll be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity! Why take that chance? Kill 'em while they're young, just to be on the safe side.



Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but these arbitrary rules about who's saved (Xians <evil or good>, the mentally ill, and children up to the 2,554th day of their lives) and who's not (people of any religion other than Xianity <evil or good>, children over the 2,554th day of their lives, and everyone else) just don't make sense to me.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by John Paul:
<strong>
P.S. Does anyone else realize that all the verses dealing with killing someone are about punishments, not about fun things to do on the weekends??</strong>

Does this include the killing of children/infants?

Roarke

*hates to burst your bubble, but is not Veracious Maven..*

Roarke

ChurchOfBruce

That would be *two* Beatles &lt;G&gt;.

When John Paul the First died, I joked that his successor should name himself Pope George Ringo

--Frank