lpetrich

And as to disasters, consider the big 1755 earthquake in southeastern Europe, which hit Lisbon, Portugal especially bad. It happened on 8 AM, November 1, All Souls Day, when many of that town's citizens were attending the church services of that day.

Which resulted in some of them being trapped and crushed by collapsing churches.

So being a freethinker would have been VERY helpful back then.

Also, back then, a very virtuous way of repelling lightning was ringing church bells:

Vivos voco
Mortuos plango
Fulgura frango

I call the living
I mourn the dead
I break the lightning

However, that tended to get bell-ringers killed. And many church officials were very reluctant to use Ben Franklin's lightning rod, which he had invented at that time.

More recently, the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989 had damaged some old churches, but had barely touched various San Francisco neighborhoods with large populations of homosexuals.

lpetrich

Radorth is smugly saying that if something bad happens to you, it's all your fault.

So if he gets mugged, he will accept that he must have done something to allow himself to get mugged, or even something that had provoked that mugging.

And if that mugger is caught and put on trial, he will claim that that he and that mugger's other victims all brought it on themselves, and that that mugger is effectively innocent.

Ojuice5001

Like me! One of my few victories in my quest to bring about a Jovian reign is that I have ensured that Jupiter, Postverta, and Mars, not some non-Roman gods, rule over the particular Publix where I work. At least, if the little ritual I performed at its opening ceremony was more than just mumbo-jumbo.

And Publix is a great place to work, if you ignore the requirement to shave your beard. I've tried to get that rule changed, but it hasn't happened yet.

Radorth

You mean can he give the creation free will and they will do things so stupid that even he would not anticipate them? Well I suppose. But of course knowing SOME people will do stupid things and never learn anything from them, is not the same as INTENDING such.

I believe he did anticipate the fall, and the loss of some souls altogether, but at one point God is surprised at just how evil the world has become. Did he anticipate every evil we might invent? I doubt it, and this whining about how God has to be perfectly omniscient of all evil to come is just mindless IMO.

What I find most interesting and ironic is that skeptcis would be the first to blame God for all problems if he existed. and yet they are the first to pontificate on personal responsibility. Right?

So let's clear this up. If it turns out God exists, will you shift all blame for the world's ills directly onto him? Or will you consider that much suffering is caused by disobedience and stupidity?

Wow, I think the brilliant and thoughtful Ipetrich has just won "Strawman of the Week" award. How long did it take you to think of that beauty?

Wow, and two more right after that. Man you are untouchable.

Rad

Radorth

Hey wait a minute. I thought most of you were arguing last week that we should take personal responsibility for our screw-ups. But this week you are saying all that changes if God exists, and it's all his fault. Is that correct?

A person could certainly get confused here if s/he weren't rational.

Rad

MrDarwin

Okay, so you don't believe God is perfectly omniscient. I don't really have a problem with that. But remind me again why we should put our faith in a deity that doesn't know the consequences of its own actions, and created a "perfect" world that apparently broke as soon as it was made?

Neither. I expect that if some supernatural diety turns out to exist, he/she/it will be nothing like the God described by most Christians.

No, I think what most of us are saying is that, if some creator deity exists, it simply doesn't make sense to punish people for screwing up when he/she/it knew people would screw up in the first place, and in fact created them so that they would screw up. Furthermore, it strikes most of us as neither benevolent nor just that the punishment would be eternal suffering.

But I can see why you would find it confusing.

Yellum Notnef

Thank you Helen. I thought he only had two books because they are the only ones Radorth mentioned (The road less traveled/further down the road).
In the first book I listed he is clearly against Radorths dogmatic traditional religion and asserts that there is no one true monotheist religion.
Peck also claims that the way to find this new universal (as well as nameless and comepletely unproven or backed up by ANY evidence what so ever) god is to employ a healthy skepticism about Religions such as Radorths.
He then goes on to make some empty assertions about scientists and how they too need to be more skeptical about the scientific method and not so quick too discard supernatural woo woo claims just because they are hard to test.
He then goes on about miracles and how he knows they are real because he has first hand experience,but right when you think he`s going to tell you about healings or speaking in tongues,he cops out and says miracles are just regular everyday things.

So accordng to Peck......
There is a god,but he has NO proof of it at all. Both Radorth and I would find it (Pecks god) if we both lost our tunnel vision and ditched our current ways of thinking. Miracles are real,but "miracle" is just another word for normal everyday events. Science needs to get off it`s high horse and start measuring what`s not even there to be measured.

Peck is like a combintion between Dr. Phil and Miss Cleo and it`s no wonder he`s sold so many books. People eat this shit up just like when VonDaniken sold his books about ancient astronauts. Both these morons work under the same premise..ie..."theres SOMETHING out there BUT it`s not what you think it is".
And if you are correct about Peck now calling himself a Christian,he has apparently taken an exit ramp off the "road less traveled".

Spaz

Well I was kidding, heh, but from what I hear from christians everything bad is the fault of satan, either directly or indirectly through humans (after all they do blame him for tricking eve to eat the fruit, so even when they say it's the fault of humans, they blame it on satan.)

HelenM

FM,

According to that list of books I linked to, M Scott Peck's conversion to Christianity happened in between the two books you have and is mentioned in the second one.

Here's a page by a conservative Christian who definitely sees Peck as a heretic rather than a True Christian:

The Road Broadly Traveled

I think Peck might in reality be a [non-Christian] theist with rather nebulous I-make-this-up-as-I-go-along beliefs, rather than having a faith which resembles any sort of mainstream Christianity. I think he calls himself a Christian but I can't recall reading any strong reasons why he places himself in the Christian camp rather than simply saying he's a theist - except perhaps that 'Christian' gets a better response from most people than 'theist'.

Helen

Yellum Notnef

Exactly. And a better response means better book sales.

The two Peck books I have here are books I recently found at my moms house when I went over to fix her computer. She`s addicted to buying books she`ll never read at garage/yard/church sales as well as Salvation Army and thrift shops.
The Peck books came from one of the above sources at a very low price. One of the books was actually quite difficult for me to get from her because it was being used under a huge bookcase to keep it leaning towards the wall.

It`s also interesting to note that the original owner of the "Road less traveled" used the first few pages to figure out her weekly expenses including how much of her paycheck was going towards her Zanax prescription.
I guess Peck`s books help different people in different ways.