Baloo

With all due respect, hasn't it only been about 75 years since another civilized society, in the grips of a suffocating depression, began to blame and "socially marginalize" a religious group in their population? If I went back to 1925, and asked a few German Jews about the possibility of what was to come, do you think they would laugh it off as quickly as you seem to laugh off Alonzo's post? I think they would.

(editted to add quote)

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Baloo ]</p>

Gregg

I have to agree. This isn't the same country as it was during the Great Depression and WW2. We are more divided than ever, and I think as a whole we no longer have the same patience, endurance, strength of character, and sense of social responsibility that would enable us to endure a crippling economic slowdown or other truly devastating crisis without giving in to demagogues and extremists. We've been conditioned toward simple solutions and expedience. The mass media glorifies and trivializes violence and portrays it as inevitable, because non-violence just doesn't make good copy or video. Our democratic processes have become a joke, and hardly anyone takes anything seriously. No, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see democracy basically collapse in a truly serious crisis, with Congress becoming just a rubber stamp for a right-wing, theocratic dictator. Then with all the hatred of atheists and gays and non-whites being pushed by right-wing churches and organizations, it wouldn't shock me to see them made into scapegoats for the country's problems. Call me an alarmist, but unless atheists, agnostics, and more left/center religious folks wake up and become activists, things could very well get that bad. "The only way for wrong to prevail is for good people to do nothing," I think that's sort of what it says.

Gregg

uhcord

I think that would be revelent if they had been said with any sincerity. Just a political tatic would be the best way to view it instead of what they actually believe .... *shrug*

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]</p>

Sowthistle

While I would agree that no one expected the intensity and fervour of what was to come in Germany, most places in Europe were less than 100 years from the pogroms -- so the hatred and bigotry was already known to be liable to explode into violence.

I doubt it's ever come to that yet in this country.

There seems to be some other similiarities to 1930's Germany in that there is a real attempt by religion to cast us as less moral and anti-American.

ST

Gregg

We are less than 50 years removed from a time when hanging blacks in the South was a Saturday night pasttime.

Gregg

Sowthistle

Touche -- I had forgotten that.

I was thinking more in lines of traditional hatred of Jews + nationalistic propaganda campaign = Holocaust.

But there's no doubt about an American penchant for that kind of violence.

ST

4th Generation Atheist

If there was going to be any such thing, I'd say the groups in most danger in the "short term" would be 1) American Muslims and resident aliens of Middle Eastern descent; 2) American citizens, not Muslim, of Middle Eastern descent and resident aliens from other parts of the world; 3) gays, bisexuals, others living in non-traditional sexual arrangements or favoring "radical" rights for these groups and for women; 4) secularists, Pagans, non-Xns lacking sufficient "organization" to protect themselves politically. Outspoken "religious dissenters" would be in greater danger than the "apathetic" type.

But: our "enemies" lack at present anyone with sufficient political charisma to pull it off. There are plenty of Hitler wanna-bes in the wings---Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the Nutball General come to mind---but they scare most of the "middle people", who are still the strong majority. Right now the thing that's got the babboon troop screeching in full swing is terrorism anything, and I don't think most of the babboons think atheists make very convincing terrorists. The middle people don't think us terrorists at all---the stereotype is more the pencil-necked college professor, and despite the Unabomber those two images don't quite fit---and the real babboons on the freaky conservative side think we're more "pathetic dupes of Satan" or of the "terrorists", responsible for lifting a curtain of protection or some such hornswaggle. The "terrorism" thing is right now the main opportunity for a "proto-Hitler" to try anything, and the main target there would be your grad student Middle Eastern neighbors. They have a little to be concerned about---these spooky detentions being the biggest thing---but there currently isn't anyone with the personal or small-group charisma to get "middle" America fired up in the long term, to create concentration camps and such. It's a thing to always be a little on the lookout for (remember the price of freedom) and we're a little closer to it now than we usually are, but I wouldn't hit the panic button yet.

Any talk of closing the border on the way out, tho, and I'm jackrabbiting. And abortion doctors are already in danger, though not yet officially so from the gov't.

mmapes

&gt;&gt;&gt; it is reasonable to expect that the attempts to appease God will grow more and more despirate.

If I may reply to this statement of Alonzo's, let me remind everyone of what Pat Robertson said a few years back. The hurricanes heading for Florida were coming because of all the gay flags Florida was allowing to fly

An unstable follower of Robertson could easily take Robertson's message as a call to arms against all homosexuals in defense of the nation against God's wrath.

beejay

Redundant?

galiel

So.....
What are we going to *DO* about it? Besides bitch and moan, I mean <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Seriously, if this past year hasn't been a wake up call for activism, I don't know what is. Isn't it time we stopped moaning about how the sky is falling, and stopped nitpicking about "strategy" and criticising those who are acting, and started acting ourselves? Like most social change in this country, the real enforcement of our constitutionally guaranteed rights as non-believers will not happen until a massive, grass-roots movement of individuals who are "as mad as hell and not going to take it any more" explodes onto the scene.

It isn't that complicated, it doesn't take generals and committees, it simply takes individuals taking action, each in whatever way they can.

Write a letter to your paper, meet with your school superintendent, wear a t-shirt with a message, speak up at a PTO meeting, take a chance, stand up for principle, stop waiting for someone else to act. Dr. Newdow just did it, and look at the dialogue one individual has spurred.

STOP MOVING TO THE BACK OF THE BUS. BE PROUD. MAKE YOUR CHILDREN PROUD. A C T N O W ! ! ! !

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>