fando

In this thread, this came up:

fando: Watch out with those hot asians though! My first love was from Japan, but she was somewhat superstitious and used the 'we're not fated for each other' card to end our good thing. Ok, it just didn't work out, but the fate part really surprised me!

daria: That's one thing that has always puzzled me... can an atheist really reconcile the idea of fate? Even in my theist days, I had trouble with the concept--that is, if it was independent of some higher power. If it was not independent of a higher power, I had no trouble with it... but in any other context, I could never completely reconcile and accept it.

Godless Dave: I can't speak for all atheists, but I don't accept "fate" as a real thing.

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I never thought carefully about fate. What is it? By sheer coincidence, I stumbled upon this NY times article from a post on slashdot shortly afterwards: The Odds of That. 7 pages of on topic reporting!

What do you think?

Luiseach

'Fate' is a word which is often used to rationalise anything that happens to us....it creates the impression that we have little to no control over our lives, actions, beliefs, etc., which is a cop-out in my honest opinion.

fando

It's easy to dismiss the concept of fate, but it's better to understand what causes people to use it as an explanation. Consider the following findings in the article I referenced:

In retrospect, it is now clear to me what my ex meant by 'we're not fated for each other'. I thought she was superstitious, now I don't think so. She was a biology major, a very smart person capable of critical thinking. Not knowing how to communicate her feelings without hurting mine (pretty much impossible in our case), she adjusted by using the most convenient and indirect excuse available, one which was understandably indoctrinated as part of her cultural heritage. As I did not know the underlying meaning of her statement, I hastily believed what she said and attempted to convince her that fate is a silly notion with the hope of regaining lost ground. It backfired horribly and ended up prolonging the breakup.

See? It helps to understand. What is fate and conspiracy? They are cognitive holes that get filled by the nearest available excuse in times of need. It is more comforting to have a ready answer than to not have an immediate one. Next time you hear this cop-out, consider what is troubling the person and address that or do nothing.

philechat

I sometimes use "fate" as a metaphor for things that is not the result of individual volition, e.g. when a person happened to get in the plane that was hijacked. It is not meant to be supernatural, but an acknowledgement of certain facts being outside of the control of individual will. I also sometimes call "fate" the extension of a person's character--that one's actions and thoughts are controlled by his character/psychological states, thus his character is in some respect his "fate".

I do not mean "fate" as having a volition in its own, however, as some reincarnation-believing Asians sometimes meant. The way perhaps a pantheist may call "god" for something that caused misunderstandings in theists and atheists alike.

It's often the result of semantics confusion, I think.

fando

philecat, I would describe that first one as coincidence.

Ensign Steve

I'm answering them out of order, because... um, well, because I feel like it.

I'm an atheist, always have been, and I "believe in" fate (or the definitions I will give to fate). I have suspended judgement on the idea of free-will v. determinism, because I have heard all kinds of great arguments on both sides, and my opinion is that it really doesn't matter whether I have a choice or just an illusion of choice. That said, if one is a determinist, then I think it makes sense that they would believe in fate. There's only one possible future, and we'll call that future "fate." Even if one believes we have free-will, there will still be a future. The events may not be determined yet, but _some_ events will happen. Those events are still "fate." I guess I'm using fate and the future interchangeably, but using "future" to refer to the time period and "fate" to refer to the events that will occur in that time period. Not the traditional definition, but it's working for me, so far.

Let me try another one, inspired by the "independent of a higher power" comment. I guess I consider fate to be the higher power. That power is not sentient, or conscoius, or nor does it have a purpose or a goal. It is just the driving force of the universe. What makes time move forward? What makes effect follow cause? What makes probable things happen more often than improbable things? I call this concept fate. I don't consider it to be a thing. Just a concept.

This sounds like a copout to me. Using my own definitions of fate, if you met each other and got in a relationship together, then you were fated to be together, at least for some amount of time. If she wants to end the relationship, she is the one who wants to end it. She is doing the breakup, so she is in control your collective fate, as opposed to what she is asserting, which is that fate is what is controlling her decision.

I do. I guess that's what's so great about atheism. It isn't a belief system. Asking this question is almost close to asking if atheists prefer shopping at KMart or Target. I can definitely tell you what works for me, but unless we're talking about a god-belief, or lack thereof, I can't even begin to guess what Dave will answer.

I'm half-kidding, I think this was a fabulous question! It really made me think about what I believe, which is always a treat, because I don't believe much! Heehee!



Jen

Jamie_L

I think determinism as fate dramatically changes the connotation of fate to the point that the word is now describing something completely different.

Fate is determinism in an otherwise non-deterministic world. A deterministic world, to me, does not involve fate, by definition. Fate implies supernaturalism - something outside the normal laws of the universe that guides events to achieve some end or ends.
It may be true that it was physically impossible for any other events to have happened to prevent me from marrying my wife. However, that is not fate. That's physics. Fate, as my wife defines it, involves events happening which could have happened differently, but didn't because Fate guided those events. In a deterministic world, those events could never have gone differently.

As traditionally defined, I do not believe it fate. I see no evidence that there is a guiding force manipulating events. I see lots of coincidences to which people ascribe purpose. The human brain seems great at finding meaning where there is none.

Jamie

jpbrooks

Although they are sometimes considered to be logically related, Fatalism and Determinism are actually independent views.

I have to run.