Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Typhon · 06-11-2002, 11:47 PM

Needing God

As a long time atheist who feels very confident about a lack of belief in the supernatural, I am frequently mystified by the ability and need of others to strongly believe in a god or gods, sometimes bemusedly, other times, irritably so.

Many of the theists that I encounter, either here on the II boards, or in the RealWorld (patent pending), eventually admit or are drawn out in discussion, that the main reason or at least, a major one, for such belief, is often because they feel a need for a god and/or desire that such a reality exists.

A few make claims that reality or logic dictates this, but this is rare actually. Perhaps it is more common on the board, it being somewhat (or at least at sometimes) of a haven for intellectuals or at the very least, active thinkers of all types. However, even here, I frequently find that after many exhaustive pages of metaphysically pulling teeth, the true convictions and reasons that many theists have for their, well, convictions, are but built almost entirely of appeals to emotion and raw feelings.

Now personally I think this is because that for many theists, if not most, there is a strong desire/need to believe in some sort of higher power. This can provide meaning for those who seek meaning, morality for those who seek morality, purpose for those who seek purpose, and even comfort for those beset by strong emotions, such as fear, insecurity, doubt, and yes, anger.

Unfortunately for all, theism does not solely attract those who wish only to increase the world's general quotient of peace, tolerance, and happiness. Unsurprisingly, the field appears to have its share, larger perhaps than anyone would desire, be they theist or atheist, of those who use belief and religion to express some of the less benign aspects common to human nature.

At one time, we might have been prone to dismiss the belief in god then, as a manifestation of purely psychological needs, or even neuroses, driven by an incomplete understanding of the world, and a fear of death and the unknown. More recent studies however, show that there well may be a link between brain chemistry and the experiential realities of belief, specifically those in god or the supernatural.

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=690" target="_blank">http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=690</a>

If so, why is it that some of us, never feel this experience or the need for god at all? Even with my years of indoctrination in the Christian faith, there has never been a time in my conscious memory where I felt that either god likely existed or that I had such a need for this kind of belief in my own personal cosmos.

This is not to say I'm not without my own transient fears, doubts, and insecurities, but they have never seemed to trigger this response. Rather the opposite, they have pushed me in directions that have only made believing in such a concept, less and less possible. Science and secular philosophy very adequately describes the world, and our place in it. I have never experienced the so called existential crisis, just as I have not ever felt the ecstatic clutch of faith or religion.

While not a member of a contemplative order, nor a monk of any kind, I have spent many years involved in martial arts, including, some of the meditative aspects of these forms of self-defense. Again, never have I felt a stirring of extra-ordinary consciousness, nor in a time of stress, been treated to the rush of some sublime effect of brain chemistry.

I have even had the chance to experience a wide range of psychotropic drugs, which in others I have frequently noticed causing very commonly, spiritual or even deeply religious responses (or at least feelings of this), along with the more typical effects. I myself however, have never found my experiences to be of this sort, or at least, have not interpreted them as such.

All told, if god or at least the neurological need for god exists within us, I often wonder why it has never surfaced in my own experiences or study of the phenomena.

Along this note, I was wondering what other atheists and free-thinkers, or even theists, have themselves experienced, and why they think that some hear "the call to faith" or the neurological brush with our possibly hard-wired tendency to see spiritual Rorschach blots in the formless background of an otherwise, naturalistic universe, while others, like myself, do not.

Thoughts and comments welcome,

.T.

'Tis better to only believe what we see, than to see only what we believe.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Samhain · 06-12-2002, 01:09 AM

Typhon:

I think the major point that all of the "mysticism" of religion is dependent on (if stimulation of the brain is indeed involved) is how one attributes that stimulation. While I have not had the privelege to take part in martial arts, I have been able to study a bit on what I assume you would call "psychotropic" drugs. From this we can actively see the difference in how an atheist attributes the psychadelic experience vs. how a theist might. While I, personally, have studied the effects of such drugs, and experimented accordingly, I know what basic effects are caused by such, and understand them psychologically and scientifically. While I might attribute my experience from the drug as stimulation of certain portions of my brain, one who was not as knowledgeable as to the effects of what the drug was meant to do might attribute their own theory on what the drug stimulates or that perhaps it is a tool to use for religious experience.

Many of us are not content with the god of the gaps, and thus attempt to find some kind of explanation which is more probable, as we have the knowledge and accept the knowledge that the god of the gaps is an extremely unlikely possibility. Theists, however, in many cases will accept the god of the gaps (which inevitably will force itself into other portions of one's life), and will fight tooth and nail to keep that idea because of "belief" rather than a good idea or knowledge. We can accept that some things are not currently explainable, but at the same time we may have a good idea of what may explain this. The belief factor is a harder one to let go of, as the whole structure will crumble to dust if enough of the smaller pieces are deconstructed.

In conclusion, I feel it is as I said. Theists have a worldview which will give them prejudices on any experience which they will have, and if they do not have the knowledge to combat those prejudices accurately it is probable that they will be attributed to some kind of mystical or mythical experience rather than one that it currently not explainable. Remember, the human mind seeks patterns and conclusions put the mind at ease. If a person does not wish to work their brain to find an explanation for everything then it is possible that they will create their own, and this is more likely than accepting the fact that it is truly an unknown for them.

Aquila ka Hecate · 06-12-2002, 02:08 AM

HI guys,

It is notable that three of the world's largest religions started up in a desert wasteland...supporting the theory that a fear of being alone in a (hostile?) universe is a prompt for theism.

This is a topic that I spend a little time rolling around in my mind these days-having but recently come out as an atheist, previously being a priestess of a neo-pagan religion, and sometime before that, a christian.

I do not consider it a coincidence that my acute and chronic agoraphobia, along with free-floating anxiety, disappeared when the last vestiges of religion in me did, just a couple of years ago, after almost a lifetime under their sway.

I have indeed experienced the chemical thrill of religious ecstasy-and recoginsed it, by now, for what it is.Perhaps some become dependant on those chemicals?

But the longer I think about it, the more I am inclined to concur that it is fear which drives us to seek and cling onto god(s).The universe can be a mighty scary place to be in-and you are in it, so to speak, all alone. No being stands between you and it.

The atheist, I think, learns to actually enjoy this feeling. At least I have.

There seems to be a real correlation between higher education levels and increases in atheism and agnosticism.
Perhaps also being taught to think for ourselves adds something?

Sorry, I'm hopeless as a philosopher, I don't know the right terminology.
But being on these boards and occasionally contributing a few blatherings is doing me a world of good!

Jamie_L · 06-12-2002, 04:32 AM

I'm convinced that my brain is not wired quite the same as most. I've never been concerned about the big "WHY" questions (Why are we here? Why do bad things happen to good people? What is the meaning/purpose of existence?) I've never needed to "make sense" of the universe, beyond just wanting to know how it works.

If brain chemistry makes humans innately religious, then I must conclude that my brain chemistry is different from most. This seems reasonable. We all have varying degrees of intellect, creativity, empathy, emotion, etc. Why not varying degrees of hard-wired religiousness?

The downside of this possibility is that it leads to the conclusion that religion may be with the human race for a LONG time - possibly for as long as there are humans.

*sigh*

Jamie

The Messiah · 06-12-2002, 07:04 AM

I read an article in the New Scientist last year about how the sensations associated with a 'spirtual experience' could be induced using controlled electromagnetic fields. I couldn't find the article but here's a link about the same sort of thing.

<a href="http://www.mindsetcentral.com/brainreligion.html" target="_blank">http://www.mindsetcentral.com/brainreligion.html</a>

We can explain what we see in the sky so there is no room for God there. Now it looks like what theists feel will also be explained. I wonder where they will go next!

ShottleBop · 06-12-2002, 07:59 AM

Quote:

All told, if god or at least the neurological need for god exists within us, I often wonder why it has never surfaced in my own experiences or study of the phenomena.

Bell curve?

06-12-2002, 08:15 AM

God is a lot like meth.

As it is used by a community, the need for it increases. Godmeth spreads because people do have a gaps in their lives, and Godmeth has the fascinating and terrible capacity to reshape that gap into it's own image. It is a key that creates the lock.

When I first quit God, I felt very severe cravings for him. Yet at time went on, I became more and more amazed that I ever thought he even mattered.

Baloo · 06-12-2002, 09:34 AM

Typhon,

I think the actual explanation is pretty straightforward. Humans nearly top the charts in the animal kingdom when it comes to parental dependency. Children best suited and most adept at latching onto a parental figure (i.e. trusting it, seeking it for protection and shelter, loving it, and obeying it in full) were more likely to get the attention needed to live to reproductive age. This innate instinct is generally outgrown as a part of the aging process, but certain cultures raise their offspring not to outgrow it, but merely transfer it to the deity deemed responsible for the success of the culture. Thus, the almost instinctual-level drive to unquestioningly trust, obey, and love a parental figure is, in many religious cultures, maintained, cultivatived, and transformed to focus on a non-existent deity (with surprising efficiency). It is no coincidence that deities are usually ascribed parental attributes (i.e. Our Father, who Art in Heaven...) as such attributes feed off of a dependency instinct few believers ever shed.

IMO.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Baloo ]</p>

One of the last sane · 06-12-2002, 05:00 PM

Jamie, FWIW, I'm with you. I've sat in courses where people have insisted that everyone has a "spiritual side" and "spiritual needs" and thought "Nope, not me". I think some of us just don't have it. To me it's a faculty I don't have, don't miss, don't want. OTOH, I do wish I had perfect pitch, which is another brain function I don't have. I think a 'spiritual side' may be just another aspect of brain function like musicality, facility for languages, mathematical ability, artistic ability etc, and like them, exists in varying degrees in different people.

I also think I don't have endorphins, either that or don't have endorphin receptors. I don't feel more euphoric, or in less pain, when I've been exercising than when I haven't, and painkillers that act on the endorphin receptors don't work for me. Worse luck.

Megatron · 06-12-2002, 06:53 PM

Excellent post, Baloo, and I think you've hit the nail right on the head.

The only thing I'm curious about is this:

(a little off topic...)

Quote:

Humans nearly top the charts in the animal kingdom when it comes to parental dependency.

I notice you say nearly. What animal, if any, has more such dependency than the human?

06-11-2002, 11:47 PM	#1
Typhon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mount Aetna Posts: 271	Needing God Needing God As a long time atheist who feels very confident about a lack of belief in the supernatural, I am frequently mystified by the ability and need of others to strongly believe in a god or gods, sometimes bemusedly, other times, irritably so. Many of the theists that I encounter, either here on the II boards, or in the RealWorld (patent pending), eventually admit or are drawn out in discussion, that the main reason or at least, a major one, for such belief, is often because they feel a need for a god and/or desire that such a reality exists. A few make claims that reality or logic dictates this, but this is rare actually. Perhaps it is more common on the board, it being somewhat (or at least at sometimes) of a haven for intellectuals or at the very least, active thinkers of all types. However, even here, I frequently find that after many exhaustive pages of metaphysically pulling teeth, the true convictions and reasons that many theists have for their, well, convictions, are but built almost entirely of appeals to emotion and raw feelings. Now personally I think this is because that for many theists, if not most, there is a strong desire/need to believe in some sort of higher power. This can provide meaning for those who seek meaning, morality for those who seek morality, purpose for those who seek purpose, and even comfort for those beset by strong emotions, such as fear, insecurity, doubt, and yes, anger. Unfortunately for all, theism does not solely attract those who wish only to increase the world's general quotient of peace, tolerance, and happiness. Unsurprisingly, the field appears to have its share, larger perhaps than anyone would desire, be they theist or atheist, of those who use belief and religion to express some of the less benign aspects common to human nature. At one time, we might have been prone to dismiss the belief in god then, as a manifestation of purely psychological needs, or even neuroses, driven by an incomplete understanding of the world, and a fear of death and the unknown. More recent studies however, show that there well may be a link between brain chemistry and the experiential realities of belief, specifically those in god or the supernatural. <a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=690" target="_blank">http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=690</a> If so, why is it that some of us, never feel this experience or the need for god at all? Even with my years of indoctrination in the Christian faith, there has never been a time in my conscious memory where I felt that either god likely existed or that I had such a need for this kind of belief in my own personal cosmos. This is not to say I'm not without my own transient fears, doubts, and insecurities, but they have never seemed to trigger this response. Rather the opposite, they have pushed me in directions that have only made believing in such a concept, less and less possible. Science and secular philosophy very adequately describes the world, and our place in it. I have never experienced the so called existential crisis, just as I have not ever felt the ecstatic clutch of faith or religion. While not a member of a contemplative order, nor a monk of any kind, I have spent many years involved in martial arts, including, some of the meditative aspects of these forms of self-defense. Again, never have I felt a stirring of extra-ordinary consciousness, nor in a time of stress, been treated to the rush of some sublime effect of brain chemistry. I have even had the chance to experience a wide range of psychotropic drugs, which in others I have frequently noticed causing very commonly, spiritual or even deeply religious responses (or at least feelings of this), along with the more typical effects. I myself however, have never found my experiences to be of this sort, or at least, have not interpreted them as such. All told, if god or at least the neurological need for god exists within us, I often wonder why it has never surfaced in my own experiences or study of the phenomena. Along this note, I was wondering what other atheists and free-thinkers, or even theists, have themselves experienced, and why they think that some hear "the call to faith" or the neurological brush with our possibly hard-wired tendency to see spiritual Rorschach blots in the formless background of an otherwise, naturalistic universe, while others, like myself, do not. Thoughts and comments welcome, .T. 'Tis better to only believe what we see, than to see only what we believe. [ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

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06-12-2002, 01:09 AM	#2
Samhain Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,735	Typhon: I think the major point that all of the "mysticism" of religion is dependent on (if stimulation of the brain is indeed involved) is how one attributes that stimulation. While I have not had the privelege to take part in martial arts, I have been able to study a bit on what I assume you would call "psychotropic" drugs. From this we can actively see the difference in how an atheist attributes the psychadelic experience vs. how a theist might. While I, personally, have studied the effects of such drugs, and experimented accordingly, I know what basic effects are caused by such, and understand them psychologically and scientifically. While I might attribute my experience from the drug as stimulation of certain portions of my brain, one who was not as knowledgeable as to the effects of what the drug was meant to do might attribute their own theory on what the drug stimulates or that perhaps it is a tool to use for religious experience. Many of us are not content with the god of the gaps, and thus attempt to find some kind of explanation which is more probable, as we have the knowledge and accept the knowledge that the god of the gaps is an extremely unlikely possibility. Theists, however, in many cases will accept the god of the gaps (which inevitably will force itself into other portions of one's life), and will fight tooth and nail to keep that idea because of "belief" rather than a good idea or knowledge. We can accept that some things are not currently explainable, but at the same time we may have a good idea of what may explain this. The belief factor is a harder one to let go of, as the whole structure will crumble to dust if enough of the smaller pieces are deconstructed. In conclusion, I feel it is as I said. Theists have a worldview which will give them prejudices on any experience which they will have, and if they do not have the knowledge to combat those prejudices accurately it is probable that they will be attributed to some kind of mystical or mythical experience rather than one that it currently not explainable. Remember, the human mind seeks patterns and conclusions put the mind at ease. If a person does not wish to work their brain to find an explanation for everything then it is possible that they will create their own, and this is more likely than accepting the fact that it is truly an unknown for them.

06-12-2002, 02:08 AM	#3
Aquila ka Hecate Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Luna City Posts: 379	HI guys, It is notable that three of the world's largest religions started up in a desert wasteland...supporting the theory that a fear of being alone in a (hostile?) universe is a prompt for theism. This is a topic that I spend a little time rolling around in my mind these days-having but recently come out as an atheist, previously being a priestess of a neo-pagan religion, and sometime before that, a christian. I do not consider it a coincidence that my acute and chronic agoraphobia, along with free-floating anxiety, disappeared when the last vestiges of religion in me did, just a couple of years ago, after almost a lifetime under their sway. I have indeed experienced the chemical thrill of religious ecstasy-and recoginsed it, by now, for what it is.Perhaps some become dependant on those chemicals? But the longer I think about it, the more I am inclined to concur that it is fear which drives us to seek and cling onto god(s).The universe can be a mighty scary place to be in-and you are in it, so to speak, all alone. No being stands between you and it. The atheist, I think, learns to actually enjoy this feeling. At least I have. There seems to be a real correlation between higher education levels and increases in atheism and agnosticism. Perhaps also being taught to think for ourselves adds something? Sorry, I'm hopeless as a philosopher, I don't know the right terminology. But being on these boards and occasionally contributing a few blatherings is doing me a world of good!

06-12-2002, 04:32 AM	#4
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I'm convinced that my brain is not wired quite the same as most. I've never been concerned about the big "WHY" questions (Why are we here? Why do bad things happen to good people? What is the meaning/purpose of existence?) I've never needed to "make sense" of the universe, beyond just wanting to know how it works. If brain chemistry makes humans innately religious, then I must conclude that my brain chemistry is different from most. This seems reasonable. We all have varying degrees of intellect, creativity, empathy, emotion, etc. Why not varying degrees of hard-wired religiousness? The downside of this possibility is that it leads to the conclusion that religion may be with the human race for a LONG time - possibly for as long as there are humans. sigh Jamie

06-12-2002, 07:04 AM	#5
The Messiah Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Port Elizabeth, South Africa Posts: 70	I read an article in the New Scientist last year about how the sensations associated with a 'spirtual experience' could be induced using controlled electromagnetic fields. I couldn't find the article but here's a link about the same sort of thing. <a href="http://www.mindsetcentral.com/brainreligion.html" target="_blank">http://www.mindsetcentral.com/brainreligion.html</a> We can explain what we see in the sky so there is no room for God there. Now it looks like what theists feel will also be explained. I wonder where they will go next!

06-12-2002, 08:15 AM	#7
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	God is a lot like meth. As it is used by a community, the need for it increases. Godmeth spreads because people do have a gaps in their lives, and Godmeth has the fascinating and terrible capacity to reshape that gap into it's own image. It is a key that creates the lock. When I first quit God, I felt very severe cravings for him. Yet at time went on, I became more and more amazed that I ever thought he even mattered.

06-12-2002, 09:34 AM	#8
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	Typhon, I think the actual explanation is pretty straightforward. Humans nearly top the charts in the animal kingdom when it comes to parental dependency. Children best suited and most adept at latching onto a parental figure (i.e. trusting it, seeking it for protection and shelter, loving it, and obeying it in full) were more likely to get the attention needed to live to reproductive age. This innate instinct is generally outgrown as a part of the aging process, but certain cultures raise their offspring not to outgrow it, but merely transfer it to the deity deemed responsible for the success of the culture. Thus, the almost instinctual-level drive to unquestioningly trust, obey, and love a parental figure is, in many religious cultures, maintained, cultivatived, and transformed to focus on a non-existent deity (with surprising efficiency). It is no coincidence that deities are usually ascribed parental attributes (i.e. Our Father, who Art in Heaven...) as such attributes feed off of a dependency instinct few believers ever shed. IMO. [ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Baloo ]</p>

06-12-2002, 05:00 PM	#9
One of the last sane Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: hereabouts Posts: 734	Jamie, FWIW, I'm with you. I've sat in courses where people have insisted that everyone has a "spiritual side" and "spiritual needs" and thought "Nope, not me". I think some of us just don't have it. To me it's a faculty I don't have, don't miss, don't want. OTOH, I do wish I had perfect pitch, which is another brain function I don't have. I think a 'spiritual side' may be just another aspect of brain function like musicality, facility for languages, mathematical ability, artistic ability etc, and like them, exists in varying degrees in different people. I also think I don't have endorphins, either that or don't have endorphin receptors. I don't feel more euphoric, or in less pain, when I've been exercising than when I haven't, and painkillers that act on the endorphin receptors don't work for me. Worse luck.

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