idiom

His disciples included more than just the tweleve but anyway:

Act 1:8, Matt. 24:14, Matt 28:19, Mark 14:9, Mark 16:15.

This one sums it up nicely: Luke 24:47 - And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

These verses all include all humanity, there are many others that are not direct instructions like these ones.

Genesis 12, Genesis 26:4, 1 Chron. 16:24, Psalm 72:11, Isaiah 66:18, Zechariah 2:8, Jeremiah 1:5

Thats just a few illustrating the spread. Note that those are all OLD testament.

No it wasn't. Hence the story of Jonah for example, or Acts 8:1, or of Rack, Shack and Benny.

Because of Adam's sin... Its a complete misunderstanding. Jesus came to save men from their own sins, and Adam from his sin. The "Curse" (Genesis 3:17, Isaiah 24:6, Daniel 9:11) of Adam is upon the Earth, which will be redeemed by fire. Jesus didn't die for a big chunk of rock.

Obviously someone was listening. He thought there was a point in getting Himself killed for that someone.

a) Job 19:25
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth"

b) Luke 4:
"And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. .... This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. "

c) John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

d) Mark 9
"31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not "

This summary is incorrect. The sheding of blood of animals was done out of obedience and the obedience came out of faith in their God and His coming Messiah.

jmborr

Hi Nogo,
-------------
quote:
On another level.
You are not addressing my original post. Jesus never makes a link
between his mission and the "save the world" by undoing Adam's sin
concept. If you start here then you will understand that Jesus should
have stated his mission clearly and without ambiguity.
--------------

About "save the world":
I think it is hopeless to try to find a clear statement in the Gospels
where Jesus says that salvation is for everybody. This I say because
the Gospels are recorded according to the Apostles' testimony, and the
apostles were the first to be surprised when Peter declares in Acts
15:11-18 that salvation is also for the Gentiles (by the way, this also
tells you that the Gospels were recorded before Acts).

Now, you may take this lack of a clear statement as evidence that
Jesus never intended salvation to be brought to everybody. I take it
as evidence that Jesus intended salvation only for people who takes
seriously the God of the Jews, being a Jew or not. And this the
Apostles didn't get it and therefore they did not record it in the
Gospels. Why would they get it at the time if they were in Judea,
preaching to Jews ? And the apostles are famous in the Gospels for
being really slow to get Jesus' points, even when the meaning is plain.

A derived question is what are the necessary steps that you have to
take in order to be in a position where Jesus can effectively bring
salvation to you, or analogously, what does it mean to take the God of
the Jews seriously ? This was already a problem for early Christians,
when some Jews required circumcision of the newly converted non-Jews,
while others thought otherwise.
I fear there isn't a clear cut answer,
and you have to search in the gospels for what Jesus considered a
fearing God person. Alternatively, you can trust the apostles' final decision.


About "Adam's sin":
Jesus never mentions Adam in the gospels, but he talks to the Jews as
being slaves to sin and sons of the devil, while he presents himself
as the giver of eternal life and the only way to the Father. So, would
you buy at least that Jesus' mission was to bring salvation to the Jews ?

NOGO

Idiom,

Act 1:8
Perhaps but with the enphasis on Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria the last part of this verse probably refers to the diaspora. Also since the overture to the Gentiles comes later in Acts 10 then you simply do no have a case here.

Matthew 24
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The key words are "as a testimony". The intent here is not to convert people but simply as a "let it be known" item before the end of the world. (Also this part of the text was written after 70 CE and so it is unlikely that Jesus ever said this.)

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

This would have been a good one but unfortunately this is later insertion.

Mark 14:9
The problem with this and similar verses is that the subject matter is not "saving all of mankind". Here the subject is the woman who poured perfume over Jesus' head. To place such an important subject as a secondary idea in another story is simply unacceptable. For this reasom I tend to view it as an hyperbole.

Mark 16:15
This was also a latter addition. (verses 9 to end)

Luke 24:46-47
Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Jesus is just quoting scriptures here although this particular statement was never found in the OT.
This may be ok but several things are missing in my opinion.
First, there is no direct mention of Gentiles.
Second, it sounds more like an hyperbole than something central to Jesus' message. This is so because of the place where it is stated as well as the depth of the discussion, ie a one liner.

Also and most importantly all the above must be evaluated agaisnt Mt15 where Jesus specifically says that he is there only for the children of the house of Israel and Mt10 where he tells his disciples not to go to the Gentiles.
Lastly one has to look at the overall effect of the message in the Gospels. What one is left with is essentially a salvation aimed at the state of Israel rather than the whole world. This conclusion is confirmed by Acts when Peter has a dream which tells him to bring the faith to the Gentiles.

Genesis 12
I simply do not see what you mean here. Be more specific.

Genesis 26:4, 1 Chron. 16:24, Psalm 72:11, Isaiah 66:18, Zechariah 2:8, Jeremiah 1:5

Again the problem with all of these is that one cannot take them seriously in view of the context.

1. There is not stated purpose.
2. There is no stated explanation of God's plan.
3. No one ever acted upon these, showing that even the people who wrote these words did not take them seriously.
4. If God wanted this to be important and thus acted upon he would have explained in greater deapth and have given greater emphasis on this very important mission.

Keep in mind that this is all part of God's plan, the raison d'être of the Bible itself. The fact that only vague snippets can be found is unacceptable. The only logical conclusion is that these are all hyperboles. It is a bit like a small company who opens a small office in the Bahamas for tax evasion purposes and then claims to be an "international" company. The title sounds good but it has no substance.


Not so ...

Romans 5
15 ... For if by the transgression of the one the many died,

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned ...

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.


Verse 18 in particular says that all men were condemned because of the trasngression of the one (Adam)

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Notice that death which Paul claims is result of sin reigned over even those who had not sinned.


a) Job 19:25
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth"

The word "day" does not appear in the original text. Not all Bibles translate it as you have it above.
This verse is far from clear. I suggest that you are reading into it.

Here is Job 14

7 "For there is hope for a tree,
When it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
And its shoots will not fail.
8 "Though its roots grow old in the ground
And its stump dies in the dry soil,
9 At the scent of water it will flourish
And put forth sprigs like a plant.
10 "But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

There is hope for a tree "but" not for man.


13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.
15 "You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for the work of Your hands.
16 "For now You number my steps,
You do not observe my sin.
17 "My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
And You wrap up my iniquity.
18 "But the falling mountain crumbles away,
And the rock moves from its place;
19 Water wears away stones,
Its torrents wash away the dust of the earth;
So You destroy man's hope.
20 "You forever overpower him and he departs;
You change his appearance and send him away.
21 "His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it;
Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it.

Verse 14. If a man dies will he live again? Job answer is an obvious no.
Verse 19-20. So you destroy man's hope. You forever overpower him and he departs.
Verse 21. His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it.

Job believes that death is final. If he did not then here would have been an ideal place to discuss the curse on humanity because of Adam's sin and God's plan for mankind. But we have nothing, nihil.

b) Luke 4:
"And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. .... This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. "

Why not go to the actual verses in Isaiah

Note verse 3, the author is speaking of people in Israel (Zion).

c) John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

This would be good but I have the same comment as with others. No deapth in subject. Where is the context. Jesus, as far as I know, never step out of ancient Israel, had few dealings with Gentiles, called them dogs, and never explained his role in terms of all humanity.

d) Mark 9
"31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not "

??? What is your point here ?!?!?

Too bad this is not explained anywhere in the Bible. Hebrews 9 discusses this subject in detail and it does not agree with you.

NOGO

Yes.

The problem then is this.
You lose the idea of a saviour promised to Adam and Eve because of their sin.
You lose the idea that Adam's sin being the reason for death in the world.
You lose the idea that Jesus' blood was for more than ordinary sins which the Jews already had sacrifices for.
You lose the idea that Jesus was a universal saviour.
You lose Christianity.

jmborr

Hi Nogo,

quote :"Yes"
So why you didn't become a Jew ???

About the other sentences you write:

quote : "You lose the idea of a saviour promised to Adam and Eve because of
their sin"
Where does it says in the Bible God promised anything to Adam and Eve ?

quote : "You lose the idea that Adam's sin being the reason for death in the world."
According to Genesis 3:22, Adam's sin resulted in death. Again, according to Genesis, Adam and Eve are the ancestors of everybody, not only Jews. So death in the world comes because of these two.

quote : "You lose the idea that Jesus' blood was for more than ordinary sins which the Jews already had sacrifices for."
I do not quite understand what is an extraordinary sin (as opossed to an "ordinary sin"). Sacrifices prescribed in the old testament can purify only
your past sins, so you need a regular supply of bulls & lambs. On the other hand, Jesus offers a "water that will make you thirsty no more", that is a sacrifice that can purify you of all sin (including any future sin). I am basically repeating the theme of "Hebrews", but Jesus says the same in the
gospels when he talks of the water of eternal life, and being born of the spirit, as opposed of being born of the flesh. He preached all these things
to the Jews, and this offer is genuinely different to the O.T. ones.

quote : "You lose the idea that Jesus was a universal saviour."
This is back to our old discussion. My opinion is that I hold to the sparse episodes when Jesus interacted with non-Jews. From these I learn Jesus only accepts you after he checks how do you love God. If you want to know what his
standars are about loving God, then you are to read what he says to the Jews in the Gospels, and take to heart also the whole O.T.

quote : "You lose Christianity".
Then we will have to give it another name, but the recipe stays.

I am sorry I answered you so late !

NOGO

Hi jmborr,

So why you didn't become a Jew ???

I do not think that the OT is any more credible than the new. That. however. would be another discussion.

Where does it says in the Bible God promised anything to Adam and Eve ?

If you re-read my initial thread you will see that I have serious doubt about that as well. But it is a Christian belief. Something about Eve's seed and the serpent ...

Gen 3
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Do not ask me to explain this, ask a Christian minister.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam's sin resulted in death. Again, according to Genesis, Adam and Eve are the ancestors of everybody, not only Jews. So death in the world comes because of these two.

You are interpreting. Nowhere in Genesis does it say that man was immortal before the incident with the apple. Gen 3:22 simply says that by eating of the tree of life one becomes immortal. They should have eating from this tree first and then the tree of knowledge, that way they would have truly been like the Gods.

In my opinion this story simply explain how humanity got to its present state. They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil but failed to eat from the tree of eternal life.


I do not quite understand what is an extraordinary sin (as opossed to an "ordinary sin"). Sacrifices prescribed in the old testament can purify only
your past sins, so you need a regular supply of bulls & lambs. On the other hand, Jesus offers a "water that will make you thirsty no more", that is a sacrifice that can purify you of all sin (including any future sin). I am basically repeating the theme of "Hebrews", but Jesus says the same in the
gospels when he talks of the water of eternal life, and being born of the spirit, as opposed of being born of the flesh. He preached all these things
to the Jews, and this offer is genuinely different to the O.T. ones.

Yes, read Romans 6,7 and 8. Paul explains this very well. The idea is that if you believe that Jesus died and resurrected then you have the spirit of God within you and you CANNOT sin any longer. You cannot sin because you are no longer under the law. This is a very different notion that the idea that Jesus died for your future sins.

You see Paul trasnformed Christianity from a Jewish sect to a world religion. To do this he had to change a saviour which was essentially for Jews alone to one who was there for everybody. He went fishing in the OT and found the original sin and created the myth that Jesus was promised in Genesis to save mankind.
This now forms a pillar of Christian thought. This thread is meant to show that this idea of original sin and Jesus being the saviour of the whole world is a late fabrication by Paul and has no basis in the OT and the Gospels.


This is back to our old discussion. My opinion is that I hold to the sparse episodes when Jesus interacted with non-Jews. From these I learn Jesus only accepts you after he checks how do you love God. If you want to know what his
standars are about loving God, then you are to read what he says to the Jews in the Gospels, and take to heart also the whole O.T.

Even assuming that what you are saying is true I still have a huge problem with this. I believe that I explained it already. There is a big difference between a conditional acceptance as you describe and the statements which Jesus made, ie "I have come only for the children of the house of Israel", "do not go by the way of the gentiles" and "one does not give the food of the children to the dogs." Combined with this are statements like

Luke 1 68-end
" Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people, etc...

Note "God of Israel" and "redemption for his people"
We are very far from Paul's redemption of all the world.


Then we will have to give it another name, but the recipe stays.

My point is that the recipe is flawed.

jmborr

My fault ! I didn't mean death of the body. The curse of the apple is that once your body dies, there is nothing left, kaputt (this is the atheist's paradise). Eternal life means once your body dies, you come again to the presence of God, as it was before the curse. In that situation I have no clue what the concept of time is, so eternal and not eternal do not have much meaning for me, anyway.

What is this I cannot sin any longer ? Here I am sinning right now, with my high pride refuting all your wrongful misconceptions
Indeed I am not under the law, since I do not have to fulfill its prescriptions in order to be forgiven. Jesus did that for me. But there is no forgiving if you do not repent first of your wrong actions. If you believe that Jesus died and resurrected for your sins, then you are led to repent, or you are not a christian at all ("if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" -Hebrews 6:6-7).
So for me, believing the resurrection(1) and the forgiving of sins after repentance (2) --future and past ones, is the very same thing.
So the whole thing boils down to the questions (1) what makes a Christian a Jew ? and (2) Who is to judge if a christian qualify as a Jew ?
In principle, anyone can be adopted as a Jew under circumcision rite and other regulations prescribed in the O.T. So birth is not an unbreakable wall if you decide to become a Jew.
Is it then the O.T. law that determines who is a Jew ? Jesus died for breaking the O.T. law, according to the judges of the time ! He was really a heretic, not washing is hands before eating, not stoning the adulterous woman, denying the neccesity of worshipping in Jerusalem (John 4), working on the sabbath, and on top of that his shocking claims about himself. Is this person really a teacher of the O.T. law ? I gahter the conception of being a Jew was different for Jesus and for the judges of the law. Jesus denied many of the O.T. prescriptions, and if you notice the particular contexts when this happens, he did it out of love and mercy.
Jesus did not leave a detailed account of what he considered to be a righteous Jew, and this later became a problem in the early church when gentiles began converting.
Really, I am not 100% sure what to disdain of the O.T. law and still be considered a "sheep of Israel" under Jesus' eyes. Mathew 5,6,7 gives an account of some of Jesus' views. And a fast version is Mathew 22:36-40.
In summary, Jesus judges whether a christian is a Jew, and the gospels contain what makes you a Jew. I consider myself a (bad)"sheep of Israel".

NOGO

Are you saying that all the people who preceded Jesus died and there is nothing left.


[qquote]
jmb
What is this I cannot sin any longer
[/quote]

Please read Romans 6,7 and 8


Jesus stated that he did not change a single thing to the law.
Yahweh was the God of the Jews.
Other people had other Gods.
It was the Chrisitians who attempted to make this local God into a universal God. The fact that it took place in the first century is no coincidence. With the destruction of Israel in the year 70 the time was quite appropriate to spread this falsehood.

jmborr

First things first: I don't pay much atention about the afterlife issues because nobody knows a thing and then discussing this gets nowhere. Did you notice how much time Jesus spent in describing our "next life" in the gospels ?. Almost zero ! (only exception in Mat.22:30) I care that NOW I can feel and be free from my wrong actions if I truly repent (and I give thanks for this). Now, what happens in the afterlife with the Jews before Jesus, or for that matter with you, is God's ball, not mine. Speaking about me, I know I will be in God's presence because it is a promise of Jesus (yes, I know you say I don't qualify as a Jew), but really, this is not what motivated me to become a christian in the first place.

These chapters are hard bones, you are tougher than any bible school teacher !
I will read them but will take me time.

This is a great remark ! Reading Mathew 5:18-20 one would think so, yet he was rebuked many times by the Pharisees and by the teachers of the law because of breaking the law and leading others to do the same. How can both things be possible ?
The only explanation is LOVE. The two great commandments (Mat. 22:36-40 )are above the Sabbath, washing hands, and the like. This doesn't mean you allways have to reject the "smallers" but that they do not hold when in conflict with the greater two.
From the gospels one cannot draw the conclusion
that Jesus would repeately break any specific commandment (though it seems he was keen on breaking the Sabbath), so it is not that Jesus was rejecting a particular prescription of the O.T., but that he was stablishing the correct hierarchy for them.
The Pharisees and teachers of the law had flipped the importance of the commandments, because it is easier to live by a strict set of regulations than by unconditional love.
Well, of course it was the christians who did it, this is what the gospels are all about. And then we fall back into the discussion of how a gentile can qualify as a member of the "House of Israel" under Jesus' requirements (first glance it seems to me that all O.T. prescriptions must be met ).
And there are no coincidences, you are right. It is God's will

NOGO

Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God. This is afterlife at least for the then dead.

You said that the "apple" was the curse of the atheist. You die and that is all. So I want to know is that what happened to everybody until Jesus arrived.

This question should concern you. The NT says that you need to believe in Jesus and the fact that he resurrected in order to be saved. How do the dead before his arrival come to believe in him and his resurrection?


Good point BUT? ... and it is a big BUT.
You see in the old testament some people were murdered for simply picking up a stick (I must admit that I do not remember exactly) on a sabbath. So Jesus is not just saying that the interpretation of the law is in error. He is also saying that the Bible itself is in error because it gives examples of people using the wrong hierarchy of commandments.

Exactly. The plain evidence as I layed it out in the first post of this thread is that Jesus cared not a hoot for non-jews. His purpose was focused on the salvation of Israel as all past "anointed of God" did before him.

This puts him at odds with Paul's view of Jesus as a universal saviour.