Van Agon

1. There is evil in the world.

2. Atheists have children.

3. Children will experience the evil in the world.

4. Therefore, atheists who have children are intrinsically evil for subjecting their children to a world of evil.

Conversely,

1. There is evil in the world.

2. Atheists have parents.

3. Children will experience the evil in the world.

4. Therefore, all atheist's parents are intrinsically evil for subjecting their children to a world of evil.

Blessings, -Van

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Van Agon ]</p>

Jamie_L

Am I missing the point?

Doesn't this line of reason essentially lead to "all people with children are evil"? What does it matter if you're atheist or not?

Jamie

SanDiegoAtheist

The difference is, of course, that atheists are neither omnipotent, nor omniscient - and are therefore not responsible for all the evil that is.

If that atheist were to have children KNOWING that, say, by their first birthday they would contract a horrible devastating wasting disease which would cause them immeasurable suffering during their short life, then yes, I'd think that person was pretty evil.

There is a lot of good in this world too - generally of the human created variety. That, of course, is what atheists who have children are hoping that their children get to experience.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

Van Agon

San Diego:

The premise is that children WILL experience evil in the world. Based on experience, it is reasonable to conclude this. Therefore, since no doubt remains that this is the case (at least in my mind), it would seem that the bearer of children is responsible for subjecting their children to evil.


Jamie:

True, that.


Blessings, -Van
P.S. Must attend a business meeting now. Thanks.

simian

I think this person is attempting to draw similarities between atheist parents and the "problem of evil." To make it a more accurate portrait, the parents would also need to create the evil in the world. However, I think this sort of "reasoning" would be suffecient to convince your average foaming fundie that atheists are not consistent in how they view the world.

Of course, I could be wrong about what is being attempted here.....

Simian

Edited to add: The author put in another post. Looks like I was correct. I hate it when I begin reading what a "true believer" will write.

Also: out of curiousity, how many of you would list "the problem of evil" as a primary reason you don't believe in gods? I think if I accepted gods at all, I could easily envision an evil one. For me the biggest obstacle to belief is that I don't believe in other mythical creatures - I see no reason to make an exception for this one.

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: simian ]</p>

Perchance

Depends on what kind of god it is.

For me, the "problem of evil" is mainly an obstacle to believing in an omnibenevolent god such as the Christian one is most often described as. The usual answer for this is "God works in mysterious ways," which does not satisfy me at all.

I suppose I could accept the existence of a god of evil... but again not an omnimalevolent one, since then there would seem to be too much good in the world for this god to plausibly exist.

And if a god of good or evil exists that is limited- for example, having influence only over some parts of life, such as the Romans and Greeks pictured- I have never seen any evidence of one. I have not seen or heard of anything that directly contravenes scientific laws plausibly, or more than once. If a god exists that is indistinguishable from the operations of normal humans and normal life, why call it a god?

Similarly, if a limited good or evil god exists, it would have to prove that it was morally superior to me (among other things) to get me to worship it. This would seem to be impossible for an evil god, and the "good" ones, if they don't do things like heal people dying of disease, would seem to be not worth worshipping at all.

-Perchance.

SanDiegoAtheist

If the parents subjected their children to evil that it was IN THEIR POWER to prevent, then yes, I'd say that they were evil.

It's not. Human beings aren't omnipotent. We make a rational value judgement that the likely good that our children will experience in the world probably outweighs the evil that they will experience.

Your God, of course, is in a completely different boat. He supposedly has the power, the knowledge, and the will to prevent ALL evil, yet he does not.

He is in the position of a parent who subjects their child to an evil which that parent has the power, and the knowledge, to prevent - such as a child abuser. Only the WILL to not subject that child to evil is absent. That person, is, of course, evil under my moral code.


Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

brighid

Substitute Christian for atheist, or human for atheist and what you have simply stated is that it is evil to have children because evil exists. WOW – now that is SOME logic! True nothing – garbage that is more like it.

Brighid

Shadowy Man

1. There is evil in the world.

2. God created mankind.

3. Mankind will experience the evil in the world.

4. Therefore, God is intrinsically evil for subjecting mankind to a world of evil.

SanDiegoAtheist

Well, the point, as far as I can see, is to attempt to demonstrate the Argument from Evil to be invalid, by drawing a parallel between God and parents.

Of course, this is logically fallacious on several levels. The first fallacy is that it is an attempt to invalidate the argument based on an ANALOGY. This of course, is fallacious for the reason that even IF the analogy is proper and accurate, it in no way logically refutes the argument - it would simply show that there is an analogous situation to it. The argument would still stand on its merits, and the analogy would simply be ANOTHER case of it.

The second, and more severe fallacy involved here is that it is a FALSE analogy to begin with, as the condition of the atheist parent is of course, not similar to that of God in any but the most superficial way. To wit, an atheist parent does not have the power or the foreknowledge necessary to prevent ALL evil - whereas God, as defined by Christians, most certainly does.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist