Vinnie

I don't fully follow you. Can you clarify on that at all? Sin is a state of the will. Its a free will action that is performed. Are you suggesting that this action be destroyed? If so, how then do you say God should "allow men to decide" [aka choose of their own free will]?

Who said God was not "affected" by sin and why did they say it? And if God lets men decide what happens if we decide poorly? Would you rather have God deciding this or fallible man who is prone to selfishness and greed? That is is a non-argument to me.

Vinnie

winstonjen

Well, supposedly 'god' decided what would be sin and what wouldn't be sin. No decree, no sin. No decree, no fall, and so no need for "salvation."

What really gets me mad are the victimless "sins" that god invented - homosexuality, prostitution - all the consensual activities that hurt no one but somehow 'piss off' a fully good and fully merciful deity.

Perhaps god needs to try some prostitution before he condemns it.

Vinnie

I think many Christians would disute that understanding. God didn't arbitrarily decide. Sin is said to be that which is contrary to God's will. Thus, morality is somehow tied in with being itself.

No free will no sin is more accurate in my opinion.

Actually, my bondage and liberation talk posited a need for salvation minus decrees and the fall. See my thoughts on original sin here.

Vinnie

winstonjen

But isn't god's will also arbitrarily decided by god? Also, there would be free will without sin - the choices would merely be limited to 'non-sinful' choices.

Vinnie

Who said God invented such sins?

Vinnie

winstonjen

A lot of theists, especially those of the Abrahamic faith. They believe their holy book is directly transcribed from what god said.

Vinnie

I wouldn't say arbitrarily. God is the standard used to measure good. Maybe it would be less confusing if I said God's nature as opposed to will?

If our free will is limited to only choosing that which God would choose ('non-sinful' choices') then how is it really free will? How could we trully choose to love God? We woul have no alternative where we could not love God. A race of robots?

Vinnie

Vinnie

And they are all greatly mistaken. Getting over our myths can be a dificult process. As Burton Mack wrote:

Vinnie

winstonjen

Then how can we tell whose version of god's nature is correct? Christian? Jewish? Islamic?

I'm sure that people will point out the problems with having god being the standard to measure 'good.' Basically, if what is moral is decided by god, not the act itself, then it becomes meaningless. Murder is OK if god does or commands it, but wrong in other situations, for example.

Vinnie

Why should we pit them except where mutually exclusive?
And your three choices can be broekn into many more. There are about 30,000 Christian denominations. Which one is the most correct?

I would say reason, common sense, prayer, understanding and humility should open us up to a somewhat correct version if not an infallible one.

Define murder? Do you think killing in self-defense is wrong? What about if being invaded by an army. Is it wrong to fight against the invaders with lethal force? Compare that to killing someone and then robbing them of hatever money they had on them. Killing is always tragic but sometimes its the prudent course of action and sometimes it is not.

What if we say that "moral rules" as we understand them are not absolute?

Obviously drinking a beer should not be deemed sinful. But is drinking 5 and then driving down the road i na car and putting the lives of innocent people in danger sinful behavior? Certainly. A lot of morality is context specific to me.

Vinnie