winstonjen

I know that lots of Christians, especially Magus55 and Radorth will give me tons of shit here, stating that I am being blasphemous and ungrateful, etc., but I'm curious. What is the difference between self-sacrifice and suicide? Perhaps it is in the intention, but Jesus intended nothing else except to "die" and come back to life later. Jesus didn't take steps to prevent his own death. So either Christianity is wrong to condemn suicide, or god is a bloody hypocrite for condemning suicide in all cases except that of Jesus.

Any comments on this? Are there any flaws in my reasoning?

BrotherMan

I understand what you're saying, but you've already provided an out.
Suicide is generally seen as a selfish act by a psychologically desperate person. Self sacrifice is the opposite.

Pluse there's a verse in the Bible:
It's one of the Good Things Jesus is reported to have said.

winstonjen

Yes, but wasn't the entire point of Jesus' "sacrifice" purely to bring glory to god? It wasn't to save lives (except possibly Barrabas). Jesus laid his own life down for god, which means that he basically laid it down FOR HIMSELF. How selfish.

Vinnie

Its more like a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his comrades than a person jumping off a building because they can't handle life anymore.

But I don't support the notion that a wounded person driven to suicide would axiomatically go to hell?

Vinnie

winstonjen

Except that in Jesus' case, Jesus (as god) threw the grenade, then threw himself on the grenade in order to save us from himself and his wrath. Talk about mentally deranged deities.

Vinnie

I consider that [incorrect] view to be based upon a naive form of penal substitution. God does not save us from himself in my view. Rather, SHe ransoms us from ourselves and the wounds of existence.

Vinnie

winstonjen

What "ransom" do we hold ourselves to? Do we kidnap or judge ourselves and then condemn ourselves to hell?

Vinnie

From something I composed:

Bondage and Liberation

Marcus Borg: "Salvation as liberation goes back to the foundational narrative of the Bible, the exodus story of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt. Bondage as an image of the human predicament in this story includes economic and political oppression: the Hebrews were literally slaves under the Lordship of Pharaoh. The image of our condition as bondage also has psychological and spiritual meanings in the Bible. For Paul . . . and the New Testament, we are in bondage to "the powers." "The powers" are cultural, spiritual, and psychological powers operating both within us and outside us. The powers include the domination system and the spirit of the age, and they produce in us not only bondage but a sense of powerlessness. Life under the powers is dominated existence.

What does bondage suggest as an image of the human condition? We are in bondage to many things. Our bondage can be the result of things that happen to us, or we can fall into it through our own acts. Cultural messages are deeply ingrained within us, as are belief systems that radically shape the way we see and live. People continue to be in bondage to economic and political systems--both the victims of such systems as well as those who benefit from them (though in quite different ways). We can be in bondage to wounds stemming from childhood. We are addicted to many things. We typically are in bondage to preoccupation with ourselves and our well-being. The list can grow very long.

Liberation from bondage is thus one of the central meanings of salvation. The story of the Exodus is a story about all of us and our need to be liberated from what holds us in bondage. Liberation is a central theme in the story of Jesus. According to Luke, Jesus' mission (then and now) is "to proclaim release to the captives, and to let the oppressed go free." The language of liberation also resounds in the writings of Paul: "For freedom Christ has set us free . . . therefore, do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." For Paul, God in Christ has defeated the powers, exposing and dethroning the other Lords of our lives." [The God We never Knew Pp. 158-9]

The idea of bondage and liberation ties in directly with the ransom theory. The ransom theory says that Jesus' life was a ransom paid for the sake of our salvation. In many circles this view has been scorned and largely rejected as naive. A ransom is something paid to a captor for the release of something or someone. In this case it is asked to whom did God have to pay or simply find it good to pay a ransom for us? To himself? God holds us captive? Surely that is false. To those who believe he is a literal being, what about a ransom paid to Satan? Does the enemy hold us captive and was Jesus' death a ransom allowing us to be freed from him? This cannot be seriously maintained either. The notion that God would need to or even should find it good to pay anything to Satan for our salvation is ludicrous and quite simply, bad theology. What about sin? Surely we were captives to sin before being liberated? As Richard Purtill wrote, "To say we were captives of "sin" is good New Testament language, but sin is not a personal agent who can be given a reason to release us." The objection against the the ransom theory then, is that there is no one to whom God could have paid a ransom to.

Unfortunately, this view is not easily dismissed by Christians who hold to the authority of scripture. In Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 Jesus is the "Son of Man who did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many". As Mentioned by Borg, in Luke's inaugural address (4:18-19) Jesus is sent to "proclaim freedom for the prisoners" and to"release the oppressed." In 1 Timothy 2:6 Jesus is the mediator between God and man who "who gave himself as a ransom for all men". Hebrews 9:15, in the terms of sacrificial covenant, also says that Jesus "died as a ransom to set people free." As we saw above in Marcus Borg's discussion, the idea of bondage and liberation abounds in Biblical literature. We also see that the ransom theory has wide scriptural support. So the question remains? Who has us captive? To whom are we prisoners of?

One possible answer is actually right under our noses and was implicitly stated by Borg. Who has us in captivity? We do! We are our own captors and Jesus' death was a ransom which frees us from ourselves. We hold ourselves captive and God, through Jesus' death on the Cross, paid a ransom to us so that we might be released from ourselves. He wanted to liberate us from our own enslavement to sin and to reconcile us to himself. That is why Paul proclaims in Romans 5:8 that "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Through Jesus' sacrificial death God tells us that he loves us and by telling us that He loves us, He gives us good reason to release ourselves from captivity.

Vinnie

winstonjen

Why not just abolish 'sin' as defined by god, and allow men to decide what deserves punishment and what doesn't? After all, god is not affected by 'sin', but we are.

Vinnie

To view salvation as a fire escape or as "being saved from hell" is to distort it. Just one man's opinion.

Vinnie