Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 03-26-2003, 03:03 PM

According to the cover story in my Parade magazine that came with the paper this Sunday, titled "Can Prayer Really Heal?", research seems to indicate that praying is beneficial to the health of people who pray, but not effective on those prayed for. This seems to suggest that the mental practice of pretending to talk to a divine being may have some benefits, but that divine being does not exist (or does not answer prayers.) Here's a link to the article: http://www.parade.com/current/coverstory/index.html

Rene in Denver

Mad Kally · 03-26-2003, 03:36 PM

This page, Prayer Related Articles should answer all of your questions about the power of prayer.

Kally

happyboy · 03-26-2003, 04:43 PM

if prayer CAN heal, then God is a total psychotic bastard who gleefully lets millions die each day, while curing a tiny miniscule portion of the afflicted.

happyboy

orac · 03-26-2003, 07:41 PM

Let's try a few simple tests:

1) Next time you get a cold, ask a dozen doctors if they can make you better by the next day. When they can't, spend the next week or two praying really hard, and see if you get better. If you do, call this proof that prayer heals things that doctors can't.

2) Next time you hear of children dying painfully from cancer, pray that they get better. After all, doctors obviously aren't helping. When they die anyway, call it proof that God took away their pain by taking them to heaven, and thus also proof that prayer can "heal".

3) Find someone who survived an illness with a 99.999% mortality rate. Explain that 99.999% is so close to 100% that it proves God helped. Remind sceptics that anything we can't explain is proof of God.

Prayer can heal? I think we need a little more evidence before we can take that conclusion seriously.

(As to whether or not a positive optimistic feeling that you will get better can help, well, that's another question. There's plenty of studies suggesting that can help, and none that show prayer is a necessary source of optimism. Besides, if optimisim is what causes the benefit, then it won't actually help the theists who want this study to be considered proof that religion is good.)

Note: any magic healing technique - homeopathy, crystals, etc can be substituted for prayer in these tests, with exactly the same result. That's quite odd, really.

Mad Kally · 03-26-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

posted by orac:
3) Find someone who survived an illness with a 99.999% mortality rate. Explain that 99.999% is so close to 100% that it proves God helped. Remind sceptics that anything we can't explain is proof of God.

I'm a hospice RN and I can safely say that by the time they meet me it is 100%. Nothing fails like prayer...

Kally

echidna · 03-26-2003, 10:28 PM

OK, just to throw in some heresy at the atheists ...

I recall hearing last week that up to 40% of the effect of some medications is due to the Placebo Effect. Now, whatever the percentage, there is no doubt that the Placebo Effect exists.

On that basis, if a person believes that prayer will help them, they are a likely candidate to receive benefit from the Placebo Effect.

As such, yes I believe prayer can heal. (!!!)

Bialar Crais · 03-27-2003, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
OK, just to throw in some heresy at the atheists ...

I recall hearing last week that up to 40% of the effect of some medications is due to the Placebo Effect. Now, whatever the percentage, there is no doubt that the Placebo Effect exists.

On that basis, if a person believes that prayer will help them, they are a likely candidate to receive benefit from the Placebo Effect.

As such, yes I believe prayer can heal. (!!!)

Heresy? *sigh* Another IPU-denier to brun at the stake. Movie at 22:00.

Well, I agree with you, and that was in fact my first thought when i saw the topic... "Sure it can, for belivers prayers should work like a placebo. If sugar pills can work wonders, so can pleading to an imaginary being.". I have no evidence or anything to offer on this view, but that never seems top stop anyone from posting so...

sakrilege · 03-27-2003, 03:43 AM

I like to use the plague as an example of prayer vs medicine. From The Great Mortality

Quote:

� While the plague raged, Pisa and Vienna lost 500 people a day.
� Florence, Venice, Hamburg and Bremen lost a minimum of 60% of their populations.
� At the peak of the epidemic, Paris lost 800 people a day, and by the end of its long run with the disease (which lasted there until 1349), half its population of 100,000 people had died.

I'm sure most of these people prayed.

This CDC Report relates an incidence of the plague in India in 1994.

Quote:

Nationwide, 56 fatal plague cases have been reported; no deaths have been reported since October 11.

Maybe the Europeans were praying to the wrong god.

Mad Kally · 03-27-2003, 06:14 AM

Quote:

posted by echidna:
As such, yes I believe prayer can heal. (!!!)

NITPICKER!

Even in double blind studies? Wow! I don't have words!

The placebo effect is another argument all by itself. Why doesn't the placebo effect work on my patients? Damnit they all die..

Kally

Sakrilege,
I think Mithras is the right god to pray for, after all his birthday was December 25th before Jebus. (I hope Mithras is a he)

Do male gods have penises?

Shake · 03-27-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

(As to whether or not a positive optimistic feeling that you will get better can help, well, that's another question. There's plenty of studies suggesting that can help, and none that show prayer is a necessary source of optimism. Besides, if optimisim is what causes the benefit, then it won't actually help the theists who want this study to be considered proof that religion is good.)

Well, some say laughter is the best medicine, and I do seem to remember some studies showing that a positive attitude does seem to have an effect on the body's healing ability. So, if you're a theist and your own praying, and knowing that loved ones are also praying for you puts you in a better mood, then there might be something to that. But really, it's no different from the sugar pill. If you think you're getting some great new wonder drug, you'll certainly be excited about it and it may actually help even if it IS a placebo!

Overall though, I'm with Kally:

03-26-2003, 03:03 PM	#1
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	Can Prayer Really Heal? According to the cover story in my Parade magazine that came with the paper this Sunday, titled "Can Prayer Really Heal?", research seems to indicate that praying is beneficial to the health of people who pray, but not effective on those prayed for. This seems to suggest that the mental practice of pretending to talk to a divine being may have some benefits, but that divine being does not exist (or does not answer prayers.) Here's a link to the article: http://www.parade.com/current/coverstory/index.html Rene in Denver

03-26-2003, 07:41 PM	#4
orac Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,082	Re: Can Prayer Really Heal? Let's try a few simple tests: 1) Next time you get a cold, ask a dozen doctors if they can make you better by the next day. When they can't, spend the next week or two praying really hard, and see if you get better. If you do, call this proof that prayer heals things that doctors can't. 2) Next time you hear of children dying painfully from cancer, pray that they get better. After all, doctors obviously aren't helping. When they die anyway, call it proof that God took away their pain by taking them to heaven, and thus also proof that prayer can "heal". 3) Find someone who survived an illness with a 99.999% mortality rate. Explain that 99.999% is so close to 100% that it proves God helped. Remind sceptics that anything we can't explain is proof of God. Prayer can heal? I think we need a little more evidence before we can take that conclusion seriously. (As to whether or not a positive optimistic feeling that you will get better can help, well, that's another question. There's plenty of studies suggesting that can help, and none that show prayer is a necessary source of optimism. Besides, if optimisim is what causes the benefit, then it won't actually help the theists who want this study to be considered proof that religion is good.) Note: any magic healing technique - homeopathy, crystals, etc can be substituted for prayer in these tests, with exactly the same result. That's quite odd, really.

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03-26-2003, 03:36 PM	#2
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	This page, Prayer Related Articles should answer all of your questions about the power of prayer. Kally

03-26-2003, 04:43 PM	#3
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	if prayer CAN heal, then God is a total psychotic bastard who gleefully lets millions die each day, while curing a tiny miniscule portion of the afflicted. happyboy

03-26-2003, 10:28 PM	#6
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	OK, just to throw in some heresy at the atheists ... I recall hearing last week that up to 40% of the effect of some medications is due to the Placebo Effect. Now, whatever the percentage, there is no doubt that the Placebo Effect exists. On that basis, if a person believes that prayer will help them, they are a likely candidate to receive benefit from the Placebo Effect. As such, yes I believe prayer can heal. (!!!)

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