Freethought & Rationalism Archive

theyeti · 01-23-2002, 05:58 AM

Guys, debates about the morality or immorality of zoos really belong in another forum, like, you know, the morality forum. Someone should start a new topic over there if you're interested in continuing that discussion; otherwise, try to stick to the original topic. Thanks!

theyeti (now zoo free)

Oolon Colluphid · 01-23-2002, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theyeti:
Guys, debates about the morality or immorality of zoos really belong in another forum, like, you know, the morality forum. Someone should start a new topic over there if you're interested in continuing that discussion; otherwise, try to stick to the original topic.

<petulantly> Patrick started it

...

Ref the original question (which I think’s been exhausted), I’d vote for neanderthalensis too. As she’s here, maybe Ergaster’s the person to ask whether Neanderthals are now regarded as a separate species, or a subspecies of sapiens? I remember there was some DNA analysis a few years back, but not the results.

If subspecies, then I’ll go for H heidelbergensis

Cheers, Oolon

Ergaster · 01-23-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:


<petulantly> Patrick started it

...

Ref the original question (which I think’s been exhausted), I’d vote for neanderthalensis too. As she’s here, maybe Ergaster’s the person to ask whether Neanderthals are now regarded as a separate species, or a subspecies of sapiens? I remember there was some DNA analysis a few years back, but not the results.

If subspecies, then I’ll go for H heidelbergensis

Cheers, Oolon

What was the question again? Oh yeah--which *ape* looks closest to us. I think the consensus is on the bonobo (unless you are prepared to argue that Neanderthals are "apes"...

bluefugue · 01-23-2002, 02:48 PM

I meant ape species that aren't extinct... it's a bit obvious that a Neandertal looks more human than a bonobo, isn't it?

CraigHubley · 01-24-2002, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven S:


Interestingly, our social behavior is probably closer to chimpanzees than bonobos. Bonobos tend to live in matriachies and tend to use sex to pacify conflicts within a group and between rival groups. Chimps tend to be much more aggressive.

Steven S

That's all true, but human social behavior is more primitive, more like that of babboons, aggressive and troop/tribe-oriented. More so even than chimps, who practice cannibalism and hunting.

Some aboriginal/indigenous cultures have features like bonobo society, and some other human groups follow gorilla-like harem structures, but most are either chimp "gangs" or babboon "troops" of males defending gathering grounds used by the females... the babboons are generally a lot more xenophobic and resemble humans in this way. Babboons are usually the creature cited in formal peace and conflict studies.

Fact is, the hu-man is at best a lesser ape, ethically speaking, given how it really behaves.

We could learn a lot from gorillas and bonobos and orang-utans (who are solitary), but of course the likelihood is that "we" will kill them all first.

If you agree with this so much you'd rather not be human, join us at <a href="http://delphi.com/getfgap" target="_blank">http://delphi.com/getfgap</a>

CraigHubley · 01-24-2002, 04:47 AM

There is a lot of discussion of this question of Great Ape behavior and its relevance to humans at <a href="http://cybercentre.greenpeace.org//t/s/search" target="_blank">http://cybercentre.greenpeace.org//t/s/search</a>

Just enter the name of the species that interests you: "bonobo", "chimp", "gorilla", "orang-utan" in the top right, and you'll find some surprising stuff.

It appears that the Great Apes have assumed a central role in many inter-human ethical debates.

pangloss · 01-24-2002, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pantera:


Is this actually true? I thought that the chimp/bonobo divergence came well after the human/chimp divergence, which should put chimps and bonobos equally close to humans.

They are equidistant from humans.

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01-23-2002, 05:58 AM	#41
theyeti Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 9,747	Guys, debates about the morality or immorality of zoos really belong in another forum, like, you know, the morality forum. Someone should start a new topic over there if you're interested in continuing that discussion; otherwise, try to stick to the original topic. Thanks! theyeti (now zoo free)

01-23-2002, 02:48 PM	#44
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	I meant ape species that aren't extinct... it's a bit obvious that a Neandertal looks more human than a bonobo, isn't it?

01-24-2002, 04:47 AM	#46
CraigHubley New Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4	There is a lot of discussion of this question of Great Ape behavior and its relevance to humans at <a href="http://cybercentre.greenpeace.org//t/s/search" target="_blank">http://cybercentre.greenpeace.org//t/s/search</a> Just enter the name of the species that interests you: "bonobo", "chimp", "gorilla", "orang-utan" in the top right, and you'll find some surprising stuff. It appears that the Great Apes have assumed a central role in many inter-human ethical debates.

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