Celsus

Does anyone have further information on the resurrection beliefs of Essenes or others in the late Hasmonean period? There are some tantalising hints in 4Q521, which Vermes states that they are unique among Qumran fragments. Any information, particularly relating to 4Q521, would be very helpful.

Joel

Celsus

*bump*

Anyone?

Joel

keyser_soze

The only thing I can think of is that they believed, at least initially that they were living in the end times during that period. Are you referring, by hints(tantalizing) to the resurrection bit on Fragment 2 regarding "He who revives the dead"? A little bit more info on what you are trying to extrapolate would be helpful. I have heard that more text related to the messianic apocalypse has been decipehered and will be released, but you hear these rumours all of the time, and frequently they are false.:banghead:

Celsus

Well I'm curious how early actual resurrection beliefs among the Jews are. I want to know if there's a broader social context to such belief, since that fragment is unique. In particular, I'm thinking of William Craig's horrendously flawed argument here:
Of course, we already know about Elijah's and Elisha's raising of the dead. I just wonder if there is an actual, broader social Jewish belief in this concept.

Joel

keyser_soze

Among the essenes, I'm sure there was such a belief(one can at least infer this from their writings)...Among the general jewish population(seekers of smooth things according to the essenes, who despised those who were not part of their splinter group) I think it was an uncommon belief. You have to realize that the essenes were NOT the jewish population, but rather part of a group that split away from the traditional religious society and created a "cult". The fact that they wrote and maintained the qumram "library" does not equal that they were they standard of the religious regime of the time. They were essentially outcasts, whose ideas were so far away from the norm that they found it necessary to not only separate, but to leave the region, and then to create a closed society of their very own. An analogy from today would be the snake handler churches, etc. They are so far out from the "norm" of our religious society, that they are labeled as fringe and generally keep to themselves because of their percieved "nuttiness". Thus the essenes.

Celsus

Thanks for this discussion, but I'm not confusing Jews with Essenes. Rather, since the fragment is unique, not found among other Qumran finds, does not appear to be sectarian, and has various parallels elsewhere, I was wondering if this has other parallels in Jewish thought--if it was uniquely Essene, why is there no attestation elsewhere? What I am getting at is that if there are at least some Jewish traces of resurrection beliefs, prior to Jesus, then Craig's assertion falls flat. Furthermore, it is widely held that Jesus' background was Essene. Surely you know this?

Needless to say, it's obvious that Essenes did not represent the whole of Jewish thought. I would like to see you back up your assertion that they were outcasts. They had stringent purity, dietary, etc. rules, which may have indicated a voluntary removal from mixing with society at large. The Qumran community could just as well have been a radical fringe of the Essenes, or the mainstream--we don't know. That said, I'm not sure how much of a minority the Essenes were, since Josephus numbers them at something like 4000. The potential for the spreading of influence of their beliefs is not all that far fetched. I also am not sure that a belief in resurrection (except at the end of the world) was part of Essene belief.

Joel

Vorkosigan

Collins (Scepter and Star) writes:

"we now have a text from Qumran (4Q521) that has a remarkable parallel to Jesus' answer to the Baptist and that also refers to a messian who meaven and earth obey. While it is apaprently God who heals the wounded, gives life to the dead, and preaches good news to the poor in the text, trhe role of preaching is usualy assing to an agent. The mention of the messiah suggests that God acts through an agent here , too. It is quite likely, then, that there works were considered 'works of the messiah' as well as of God, before the Gosleks. Since the works in question are typicla of what is attritbuted to Jesus in the Gospels, this text strengthens the case that the epithet "annointed " or 'messiah' could have been attached to him because of his words and deeds. The 'messiah' in 4Q521 is not preceptiably royal, however, and is best regfarded, like the 'annointed' speaker in Isaiah 61, as a prophet, not a king. Raising dead is associated with the prophet Elijah, not with a Davidic King. it is not difficult see why Jesus, as portrayed in the Gospels, might be recognized as a prophet, and in that sense as 'anointed.' There are explicit indications in the Gospels that he was so regarded. The parallel with 4!521 further strengthens the case for a prophetic Jesu. it does not explain, however, why he should have been crucified as King of the Jews or regarded as a 'Son of David.'" (p205-6)

Hope this helps. Moving on:

On p121 Collins tacklles the text relationship to the sect of Qumran. "It is not certain......the sectarian literature is notorisouly lacking in references to resurrection, and has relatively few references to the eschatological prophet. In favor of a sectarian origina, however, are several parallels in vocabular, especially with the Hodayot and the interest in the poor, which suggest a common cultural context. The question must be left open. "

next paragraph
"The most fascinating parallel...from the New Testament, in a pssage that derives from the Sayings Source , Q, .....In response to the question Are you you one who is to come......(Matt 11:2-5, Luke 7:22). [long discussion snipped] The parallel between 4Q521 and the NT is intriguing since both go beyond Isaiah 61 in referring to the raising of the dead. This can hardly be coincidental. It is quite possible that th eauthor of the Sayings Source knew 4Q521, at the least he drew on a common tradition.

Hope this helps. I meant to get this to you earlier but life intervened.

Vorkosigan

keyser_soze

Celsus

Err... That's the Thanksgiving Hymn, and those particular lines you cite have rather overt parallels with Isaiah 53:3. It's pretty clear cut that the literal interpretation can't be trusted in this case.
Ok. I believe we merely disagree on the term "outcast." They were probably ascetics, and Qumran was likely quite solitary (with not more than 200 people living there), but I disagreed with the connotations you mentioned earlier, since "outcast" to me seems that they were rejected by society (I think it was the other way round).

Joel

keyser_soze

Agreed, same road. Connotations can cause two different people to read the same sentence differently. I will agree that your value of the word is superior. Actually to a degree, I see the separation is probably on both of their parts, if we paralell current cults with the same design. They retreat out of a sense of protection and not wanting to be "tainted", and the majority retreat from the splinter because there are significant differences in the way they operate within their world. To me it just smacks of small splinter religion groups. Apologies for the incorrect word usage.