Muffinstuffer

First, I did NOT come here to tell ANYONE how rude they are. My question was essentially "Understandably, the witnessing pisses y'all off, but for those of you who get all upset and pissed off and take it incorrectly, did you ever think that they do not ALL set out to piss you off, and might be trying to help out?" If that appears to you to be a shielded attempt to try to witness to you, then, well, you misread it. If I were trying to witness to someone actively INSTEAD OF BY EXAMPLE - which I have already said I try to do all the time - you'd know it. But nowhere did I accuse any specific person of being rude. That was my FIRST POST on this board...the people in question who insulted me in the past did just that - insult me in the PAST...and NOT on this board.

And for the 2394th time, I TRY to GET TO KNOW the person first and be their friend FIRST before I even ATTEMPT to discuss religion in ANY fashion or form - unless they bring it up first.

Muffinstuffer

Sure. Obviously both ways are offensive to you, and to other atheists. That's understood. But, I believe you can agree on the fact that if we got into a generalized discussion on religion, started by either person (as happens in my life all the time - I actually start LESS of them than are started by others), and I started mentioning casually my beliefs and how they might help.........well, that would be less obnoxious (assuming I shut up and didn't bother you once you told me you didn't want to hear it) than if I just ran up to you and yelled REPENT!

Muffinstuffer

Sure it makes sense. I would like to go on record and say that people think about this WAY too much indepth. Obviously you know what being 'forgiven' in the Christian sense means. I don't think I need to tell you. I also do not think I need to tell you (assuming you have studied Christianity) that, OTHER than the Christian asking Jesus into their heart and all that, the 'being forgiven' part comes from no action on the part of the Christian. In other words, there's nothing we (Christians) can offer God to 'pay him back.' It was/is a free gift.

This being said, to ME (maybe not to you) the bumper sticker says only that the ONLY thing that sets apart Christians from anyone else is the fact that they asked Jesus to be their savior. The 'saving' comes from no action on the part of the Christian, other than the asking. And asking a question doesn't make me superior to anyone, nor does being a Christian. A load of Pharisees thought that it did, and they got schooled by Jesus. Does it make me different? Sure, I suppose. But not superior.

I think I should point out that I do NOT have this bumper sticker on my truck. That might make you feel better. Heheh.

Starboy

I guess you didn't get my point. If I as a single person were convinced of the efficacy of agent x, and in my enthusiasm I told everybody I came in contact with that I thought might benefit from agent x but I had no actual basis in reality to think that agent x was efficacious, then it is questionable if what I am doing is actually a benefit and in some cases may be a detriment because it might cause someone to not seek treatment using methods whose claimed efficacy has a basis in reality. Now if an entire industry is created to promote agent x using this giant multi-tiered marketing scheme, there is no question that fraud is involved and that those unwitting low level marketers were indeed duped but they are also culpable.

For you to go around spreading the good word with nothing more than your good feelings and in the process prescribing your religion as a cure for many ills when in fact there is no basis in reality to think it is any more effective than nothing, well that is fraud. At best you have been suckered, at worse you are a con man.

For this reason alone it is hard for me to understand how any educated Christian person would ever actively engage in proselytizing.

Starboy

abe smith

"So, what do you WANT to try to get to know me & "be my friend" FOR, Marcia?" My Impression Izz that your Secret Agenda, Muffinstuffer, are (sic) to CONVERT EVERYBODY to eat your (menu).....
If you feel obliged to do this (apparently so frequently: to everybody?), I suggest, kindly, that you say to your converser(s), "I am a (Christian... or whatever other label you may wish to use to identify yourself as); and are you willing to discuss this with me?" Your doing that gives them the option to say at once "NO!" and not require them to be "rude" to you.

Rhea

For the sake of discussion (and I am enjoying this discuission and you are an enjoyable poster tio discuss with and I think we are actually listening to each other - just in case any of that was in doubt), can you address why you think the bolded part should, apparently by definition, mitigate pissedoffedness?

Examples were given of other people who were "trying to help out" which did NOT warrant a charitable ear, and examples are given about how many times any single person can be reasonably expected to remain charitable in the face of "well-meaning" interferences. I would like your discussion on that.

You seem to be claiming that as long as the offender is well-meaning (however misguided) then by definition one has no reason, ever to feel pissy. Do I have that right? If I have that right, once you confirm or deny, then I'll provide some examples wherein a reasonable person will, IMO, get reasonably pissed off (and thereby rude or sarcastic). If I have your stance right, then no matter what my example is, you will continue to claim they have no reason to be pissed because the offender means well.

Just seeking clarification, here... because I think you're glossing over that fact that people are reacting to your claim that they are unreasonable to get pissed no matter what if someone means well, and it's hard to believe that such a sweeping statement is true. But I'm open to discovery.

Rhea

au contraire, thinking about this in depth is an incredible compliment to you. We are TRYING to find a way to not hear an insult. We're trying REALLY HARD. I think that's a positive thing.

Derweisswolf

I must say that this suprises me to NO end in Georgia. My experiences from South Carolina and Texas are exactly the opposite.

I wasn't even moved into my new house a few years ago, when a neighbor was knocking on my door to invite me to her church services. In the 3.5 years since there have been at LEAST a dozen more visits (usually early Saturday morning when I was trying to catch up on my weekly sleep deficit) from various members of the various local churches encouraging me to join their establishment. To be fair, however, I feel I should mention that in my town of 1400 people there are at least 7 churches, so I guess the Church:Visit ratio isn't so bad...

I will say, however, that I was raised to be polite. I normally accept whatever litature they are passing out, thank them and close the door. Of course my 8 German Shepherd Dogs crowding 'round for a look-see does help keep them at a distance -- and prevent the foot-in-the-door approach that was tried right after I moved down to SC!

Muffinstuffer

Well, actually there was some doubt. For the record, I came here because despite the fact that I am Christian, I DO enjoy reading and occasionally participating in intellectual discussions. Not everything I discuss has to be about Christianity. It just so happens that I picked the 'right' or 'wrong' (you choose ) topic the first time around.

As far as mitigating 'pissedoffness' I really suppose that has to do with the person I am chatting with, and I will ALSO say it has a lot to do with how one approaches people. I have NO problems if I say something to someone about my faith and THEN they get upset or fussy, etc. I actually expect that. THAT I have no problem with. But there is a difference between that, and a seemingly normal person almost attacking me for my beliefs after asking ME FIRST.

To make a long story short...if I disagree with someone, if they tried to present their point of view civilly, I will disagree with them, and let them know that I am not open to that topic of discussion, civilly, because at least I knew they weren't trying to intentionally piss me off. They were just trying to share with me something they thought might make my life better. If they don't, well, I'll still do my best to be civil no matter how many times I've been asked *L* because as soon as I get upset, I personally start to lose credibility, I start to act irrational (although I'm Christian so by definition most of what I do is irrational ), etc.


That one's fairly easy. I was in CHURCH once, and had been a believer for about 5 years, and one of the members came up to me and started asking questions. They decided, because I didn't answer them correctly, that I was NOT a believer, and decided then and there to not only baptize me but try to make me speak in tongues. And I mean MAKE....they stopped JUST short of bodily carrying me to the baptismal, and I literally had to push some of them out of my way to leave. To me, THAT does not warrant a charitable ear.

Well, to be honest, because I'm a 'nice' guy *L* I ALWAYS do my best to not get upset in the face of any discussion that I do not agree with. I will do my best to get out of it, and I won't react by getting all upset and yelling or anything.

No, I don't claim that. What I do claim is that if the person is well meaning, it should at least give the 'victim' (heheh) pause and make them ask themselves if a simple 'no thanks' or short discussion would not turn off the other person faster, and with a bit more ease. I am sure you can agree that there are times - and people - where a simple 'no thank you' or very short discussion of why you are not interested, can dissuade proselytizers easier than getting fussy will.

I did not mean to claim that and I apologize if I did. I DO mean to say that certain kinds of responses to certain situations ARE unreasonable - such as when I'm in a totally neutral discussion about religion (if this is possible), and someone asks a question of me and then attacks me verbally for my opinion.

But I've already pointed out that this is not always the case (although it has been a lot of the time), and that many of the members here are convincing me that is not the case with everyone.

Muffinstuffer

Well yeah, but aside from the fact that such thoughts and comparisons as the ones you have described have honestly not entered my mind - seriously - what if I fail to persuade you that I, at the least, never intend any insult? As I've said, and as others have said, sometimes people WILL be insulted no matter what, and that I cannot change. All I can do is to persuade people that I myself have no such aims when talking with you, and that I never put that much thought into the bumper sticker.