Defiant Heretic

Ok, the soul then.

I didn’t say we directly detected it. I said we detected it.

I don’t assume that we’re omniscient. I merely think that if we detect absolutely no evidence for something that it is more likely than not to be nonexistent.

As for presuming the spirit exists, despite a total lack of evidence: What is the difference between presuming this and presuming that the dragon in Asha’man’s garage exists?

Or maybe the Invisible Pink Unicorn (phuhhh) created it all. I’d like to see some evidence to support your claim.

Perchance

Hello High Idealogue,

If I'm understanding your position correctly, it boils down to: "Science is grim; myth and fantasy make us feel better; therefore we need myth and fantasy; and it's located in a divine eternal essence."

I've heard people present this idea before. Yet I would really like to hear your thoughts on the following subjects:

1) Why is science grim? What about it makes it grim? If it's mortality, why do you want to live forever?

2) Why do you assume that "myth and fantasy" are always positive? I've seen and heard enough about the bad results of some religious indoctrination to make me wary of it.

3) Why should someone need to believe in myth and fantasy, as opposed to enjoying it on the same level that we enjoy novels- that is, as something that may be "true" on many levels, but something we know didn't happen in the observable, real world?

4) Why should we presume a divine eternal essence? Why not a genderless, mindless force, or one with the mind of an animal, an it? Why not a force that dies and rebears itself again and again, like a phoenix? Why not the IPU?

-Perchance.

High Ideologue

I never said 'we will be unable to explain the laws of the universe'.

I never said ' we will be unable to develop a set of mathematics that will allow us to explain the laws of physics'. I will say that our laws of physics are unable to explain everything, everywhere at all times.

In the absence of verification based on ones’ own sensory perceptions, why should I believe in my myths? The only remaining reason to believe is that my intuition and judgment has led me to believe. The main argument against trusting my intuition and judgment is that these are subjective. That is my intuition and judgment is subject to my own desire to best satisfy my need and aspiration to be happy. Ideas that are the product of my intuition and judgment in the absence of verification based on my senses and perceptions amount to nothing more than a wish projected into the mystery as myth and fantasy. Where as sensory perceptions are objective. That is uninfluenced by emotion, surmise, or personal prejudice and verifiable externally. Ideas that are a product of my senses and perceptions amount to truth and knowledge based upon scientifically reproducible discovery. However, I would also point out that just because my intuition and judgment are subjective and lead me to ideas about self and world that are capable of best satisfying my needs and aspirations to achieve and maintain happiness does not necessary prove the resulting ideology is inherently incorrect. It is merely subjective. It is possible within my myths and fantasies are in fact undiscovered truth and knowledge.

As High Ideologue of the House of Ideology, I think the more important test is the ability of any given body of ideas to best satisfy my need and aspiration to achieve and maintain health and happiness. According to this criterion, I test the scientific approach of building a model of self and world using truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery to the exclusion of myth and fantasy based on mystery. I find only trusting my senses and perceptions; being objective, and using Occam’s Razor to cut away mystery from discovery is a dismal failure. Why is it a dismal failure? I find building my model of self and world using truth to the exclusion of myth is a dismal failure as spiritual leadership because this approach leads me to devote energy, space and time to thoughts, beliefs, and expectations about lower self, lower world, and lower future that lead to lower self esteem. Lower self-esteem follows from the discovery of impending disease and death and produces powerful emotional responses of sadness, fear and anger and sad, mad and bad behavior.

I do not waver even a moment from doing the tasks required to achieve and maintain health and happiness. I celebrate liberation from ideological authorities that would direct me to build my model of self and world from truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery to the exclusion of myth and fantasy based on what is possible within the realm of mystery. I interest myself in knowing about probable truth based on scientifically reproducible discovery that produces the most powerful physiological responses of health possible. I interest myself in fantasizing about possible myth based on the mystery of existence that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable. I make up my mind about what truth and knowledge best satisfies my need and aspiration to achieve and maintain health. I make up my mind about what myth and fantasy best satisfies my need and aspiration to be happy. I am willing to concede that focusing on ones' senses and perception in the search for scientific truth may be a valid approach to utilizing the limited energy, space, and time available to the scientific community. However as an ideologue of the House of Ideology, I would argue that focusing on ones’ intuition and judgment in the search for spiritual truth may be a valid approach to utilizing the limited energy, space, and time available to the ideological community. It is for this reason that I believe that my divine eternal soul spirit rides my fractal infernal temporal seed body, gets inside my mind and guides me to a model of self and world that is discovered and undiscovered truth.

What evidence do you assume that have I assumed?

In answer to your other questions. I acknowledge that this spirit I wrote of is just one favored example out of an infinite number, diversity and variety of positive possibilities. In the market place of ideas that is our global culture I noticed a vacuum of sorts. I noticed there was not one sacred text about a spirit that simply liberates souls by accepting any conduct as divine eternal entertainment. So I set about to create one. All other attributes follow as possible explanations of why souls should be liberated by this spirit.

High Ideologue

I need more information from Asha'man about the dimensions and attributes of the fire breathing dragon and garage in question.

So would I.

High Ideologue

First of all, I don't believe that I will live forever. I believe I am made up of a unique combination seed, body, soul and spirit. Once my seed body is gone there will be no more me. I never said there will be no loss. On the contrary life is all gained opportunities and potential gradually lost as time, entropy and the predators of our self consuming biosphere wear us down. I would like my divine eternal soul to take on some other forms after this one expires.

Where and when did I assume that 'myth and fantasy' is always positive? Yes, teachings of Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple come to mind as a relevant example. Need I mention Heaven's Gate as another example?

I can not say why someone should need to believe in myth and fantasy. I can only say why I do. By the way, I am not posting in this forum in the hopes of convincing others of their need to believe. I am posting in this forum in the hopes of receiving feedback. I certainly I hope that others can enjoy the House of Ideology Manifesto as a piece of entertainment.

Those other options you mention are not extreme enough.

High Ideologue

I think that metaphysical naturalism could possibly be all there is. However I feel that I would like to enjoy emotional satisfaction of believing there exists a divine eternal essence to self and world.

I believe there is as much evidence pointing towards the existence of a divine eternal essence of self and world as there is pointing away.

Suppose then that I choose to reject all myth and fantasy based on what is possible within the realm of mystery and use only finite truth and knowledge based scientifically reproducible discovery to build my model of self and world. Taking science at face value offers a rather grim model of self and world. This narrow limited point of view would lead me to conclude that I am doomed to an oblivion of disease and death. That is enough to evoke extreme feelings of sorrow, fear, and anger. Without myth and fantasy based on mystery, I would be without countervailing forces of extreme joy, faith and love. I need countervailing forces of extreme joy, faith and love to balance the emotive forces of my mind against extreme emotive forces of sorrow, fear, and anger. I think, believe and expect that if I unbalance my mind with powerful emotive forces of sorrow, fear and anger that would lead to sad, mad, and bad behavior. I expect that sad, mad and bad behavior would hinder my efforts to create, and survive. Thus from both a material and spiritual point of view, my energy, space and time may be well spent building a framework of myth and fantasy based on mystery that when thought, believed and expected to be true unleashes powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love.

Asha'man

So let me get this straight: reality is cold and harsh, so you reject it. Instead, you choose to live in a delusional world based on myth and fantasy because it makes you feel better?

That is your choice and I respect your freedom to make it.

I, however, prefer the sane approach of accepting reality as it appears.

Oh, and a friendly suggestion: if you want to live in a world of myth and fantasy, don’t try to use science to justify it. You will fail miserably, and just make yourself more depressed. The conflict between the two will overwhelm you.


Why do you need anything more? It is totally undetectable by science, and does not affect the universe as we know it. But I tell you it exists.

Ok, since you asked: It is about 14’ tall when it raises its head, and weighs about 3 tons. Its scales are dry and rough, and a deep shade of blue-green. I think its name is George, since it whispers to me while I am asleep. It is invisible, and leaves no footprints, and I can walk across the garage without running into it. (Actually, it is a carport, open on the front and one side, but is large enough for two normal sized cars.) I will swear on a Bible that all of this is true.

Perchance

How can something that is eternal not exist forever? For what it's worth, I consider immortality through reincarnation or "achieving other forms" to be in the same boat as immortality through going to heaven: it still depends on a soul, of which I have no clear definition and no proof; and it still fulfills the human wish for some kind of eternity, which persists even without evidence.

If you're talking about the kind of "immortality" that arises when one's body is recycled- for example, when the body is eaten by worms and becomes parts of other animals- that I would accept. But I have never seen any evidence indicating that the personality, or something that is a self, survives brain decay.

Here:

It sure sounded as though you were saying "science bad, myth and fantasy good." If you're making a distinction based on your saying this for yourself and something else for other people, then I would like to know what the distinction is.


With your first post, it sounded as though you were challenging atheists, and claiming that your way of living was more reasonable. If that's not your intent, then I would suggest offering up more evidence. Is the idea of a "divine eternal essence" based only on your emotional needs? Or do you have proof of it?

An invisible pink unicorn isn't extreme enough? It's usually taken as a reductio ad absurdum.

-Perchance.

Perchance

What is this evidence? Is it physical? Is it emotional? Can you see, hear, smell, touch, or taste it?

This is the part where you seem to leave just talking about your personal viewpoint and insisting that something exists which others can touch.

Why?

This part makes it seem as though you do want to live forever, and is similar to other testimonies I've heard about the need for myth and fantasy based on fear of death. I've really never understood this. Why should one fear death? If death is oblivion, then you won't feel anything. Dying might be painful; death itself will not be.

But how do you know that it's science causing this? What about science causes it? I'd like to hear specifics, since "science" is often thrown around as a general word, and I have no idea what people mean by it. Does a wasp laying its eggs in a spider depress you? Does knowing how a flower grows? How the human body works? Or how wide space is?

Well, that may work for you. If so, more power to you.

But then, where is this evidence that you talk about? Does it exist for other people?

-Perchance.

High Ideologue

How have I rejected reality? How have you proven the metaphysical naturalism is reality? What are you suggesting about your abilities to make observations, gather evidence, and draw conclusions?

Ideology way fashions reality.

All that I have done is accommodate truth and knowledge based scientifically reproducible discovery that in my mind best produces health into a model of self and world that includes a framework of myth and fantasy based on mystery that in my mind best produces happiness. I have built a model of self and world that in my mind best produces happiness and health. I love to be free to make up my mind about myself about all I find.

Delusion is defined as a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence. Yet you have provided no evidence that my beliefs are false. Implying that you possess omnipotent abilities to gather evidence, make inferences, and draw conclusions.

Another clear indication that you take glee in presuming to know it all.

Yesterday I agreed that there was no evidence to be found. Today I realize that this too is a fantasy. The reality is universe can be interpreted as evidence. It is possible to observe evidence and not recognize it as evidence. I could be wrong but I doubt it. Because it is a lot easily for me to believe the something that is our universe could have arisen from everything that is infinity evolved to perfection then nothing or some other finite process. Infinite Singularity lives through all life forms choosing thought and feeling patterns for their conscious minds created within the limits of unconscious minds created by our seed bodies, created by an infinite chaotic dynamic system we call our infinite seed and infinite body. I believe in the infinite four: infinite seed, infinite body, infinite soul and infinite spirit. Like Joseph Campbell, I believe that one can make a rough analogy between bulb and light and body and soul. We have a choice as to whether we want to identify with the bulb or whether we want to identify with the light.

I want to live in a world of truth and knowledge based on discovery that best produces health and myth and fantasy based on mystery that best produces happiness. Health and happiness are synergistic. Yet you want to take my happiness away to make me more healthy. That makes sense in the mind of a sadistic predator.

Do you even know me outside of this forum and my website? Are you aware that you just made a diagnosis? Are you claiming to be a clinical psychologist now? Maybe you are simply projecting how you think you would feel if you were in my shoes. Well you don't know what it is like to be me. Your arrogance seems to have gone up a few degrees. More than likely if I listened to your advice I would feel depressed.

Really? Well let's test that theory and I give you a few of my theories. I am living off an inheritance. I have the time and energy to explore the issue. My participation in the forum has reinvigorated my efforts to present in the House of Ideology Manifesto a model of self and world that for me best produces health and happiness. The book needs a lot of work. I thank those who contributed useable feedback. I thank in particular those who pointed out to me their ideas about gnostic theism, gnostic atheism, agnostic atheism, and agnostic theism.

I see these four as being linked to seed, body, soul and spirit or four structure of form of self and world and their drives to create, survive, perfect and revive. Gnostic theism is representative of great religious traditions. These ideological traditions cater to the drive of the seed to create. Ideological authorities propagating these ideological traditions proclaim to communities of faithful believes that their sacred texts contain divine exclusive revelation of the discovery, word, will and laws of their good one at war with their evil one here on Earth. According to ideological authorities propagating these Gnostic theistic ideological traditions, their good one establishes a standard of conduct for communities of faithful believers that commands members to be fruitful and multiply, work all the hours of the day, and fight evil and conversely commands members not to be engage in sex for recreational or occupational purposes, not to be slothful, lazy or sluggish, and not to be evil. Gnostic theists claim to know that their belief in their good one is true and tend to believe that only their way of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth is good and all other ways of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth are evil to a greater or lesser to degree. Out of this arises intolerance. Out of intolerance arises fanaticism. Out of fanaticism arises terrorism and war. Thereby these ideological traditions destroy to create a global culture safe for themselves by motivating communities of faithful believers to out work, out number, out fight less aggressive more passive cultures. Eventually limitations in the dimensions of the Earth, and limitations in available resources, ideas and technology make the exponential expansion of human population an increasingly difficult problem. The global culture reaches a stage where in the vast majority of all humanity lives a subsistence level existence and environmental and genetic degradation begins to occur. Eventually out of this comes agnostic atheism. Notably communists within our global culture represent agnostic atheism. Agnostic atheism caters to the drive of the body to survive. Agnostic atheists generally understand that communism is an ideology. This leads us to the Gnostic atheists: a perfectionist bunch of capitalist plutocrats that believe themselves to be superior beings. Gnostic atheists believe in evolution both at work and in theory as a logical solution to problems environment and genetic degradation. At times these Gnostic atheists are free to hate and conspire to perpetuate a 'never ending' war to feed a beast of a predatory military industrial complex. Finally there are agnostic theist such as us who converge upon extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery to ornament limited truth and knowledge based on discovery and usually only to themselves say about all four 'beautiful divine eternal soul children are we'.

Of the many things I do not understand prehaps some one can help me with this one. Agnostic atheism implies a choice is made. Is there someway in some cases their choices can to be linked to a reward for feeling sorry for oneself? Reject of a divine eternal essence of self and world seem like low self esteem to someone like me whose soul embraces an extreme spirit of love and freedom. I guess the reward for some would be to do something about sadness, fear, and anger like mastering the laws of cause and effect that govern the matter and energy of the known universe and apply understanding and analysis to the problem rising to a level of authority, power, order and control in a state and coopting the role of perfectionist capalist plutocrats in believing themselves to be superior in evolution. I see all four renewing themselves continuously in our global culture and acknowledge their beauty. I believe in freedom to develop all four possible points of view, tolerance of expression ideas the follow from developing all four possible points of view within the global culture, and let the chips fall where they may with respect to followers attracted and or repulsed by each ideological authority. I have no condemnations of wars made by gnostic atheists in defendence of evolution at work and in theory when our environment and genetic degradation brought on in part by condemnation of homosexuality and unstrained drive of the seed to create run up against limits imposed upon us by limitations in our models of self and world. But is this really the case? Who should I place my faith in predatory capitalist plutocrats or the people to make a conscious choice to evolve. I suggest to you that the wealth of the predatory capitalist plutocrats may be dangerous to the health of the many of our nations. I suggest to that if limitations are self-imposed by interpret our universe as evidence of metaphysical naturalism explaining all then low moral and failure could be the result. I think we need high self-esteem to make it to the stars. I strive for the highest self possible. This includes belief in a myth and fantasy about a divine eternal essence of self and infinite world.

I don't need just asked for it. I wanted you to have an opportunity to engage in making myth and fantasies like pink unicorns and dragons in garages. By the way I don't deny you your dragon in a garage. In a model of self and world that is infinite divine eternal and one there exists an infinite number, diversity and variety of large universes of the correct kind to support living infernal feeding entities. More likely these exist roughly as you describe them just not in this universe. Also it is a positive possibility if intersecting universes superimposed but inert to one anothers energy, space and time exist, then it would be possible for this dragon to be living in your garage.

Difference between your dragon in a garage and my belief in an infinite, divine, eternal, one is one of dimensions and extreme dimensions.

The infinite divine eternal one is extreme in dimensions of quantity of energy, quality of space, longevity, and denominator of continuum. George is limited in his dimensions. The emotive forces of sorrow, fear, and anger produced by the discovery of probable dimensions of seed body and self may be far stronger than emotive forces of joy; faith and love produce by the mystery of possible dimensions of soul spirit and world. I compensate for this inequality. Probable dimensions I describe as limited and possible dimensions I describe as limitless. In this way, I amplify the emotive forces produced by the mystery of possible dimensions to balance the emotive forces produced by discovery of probable dimensions. No such amplification is possible with George. Both are myth and fantasy based on mystery. For me and others who agree with me, my belief in the extreme one produces the most powerful emotional responses of glad happiness imaginable. George simply doesn't cut it as a emotive balance to the extreme negativity of the death sentence that hangs over all of us like a sword of Damocles.