Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SRB · 10-30-2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
From scripture, we see that what God "wants" is for people to freely love him. He will not force himself upon anyone.

SRB
Love is an attitude towards other people and an inclination to do what is in their best interests. Our attitudes and inclinations (as opposed to our actions) towards others are formed involuntarily based on our experiences. You can no more freely choose to love someone than you can freely choose to grow a foot taller. If you doubt me, please now attempt to wilfully control your attitudes towards other people. For example, try to make yourself no longer love your family or some other loved one. You will fail. The idea that people make a free choice to love others makes no sense when viewed in the light of the facts of human psychology.

Even if it were granted that people do have wilful control over who they love, people could have a free choice to perform morally wrong actions even if Satan did not exist. So what you said would still fail to explain why God allows Satan to exist, even on the assumption that people do have such control.

SRB

SecularFuture · 10-30-2002, 05:59 PM

Amos

Quote:

� So then why don't you show me the thinginess of evil.�

What is a - �thinginess�? Anyhow, I can�t show you something that doesn�t exist. There is no such thing as �evil�.

Where does psychology and neurology fit in with your concept of �evil�? Today we can visually see the brain damage responsible some psychotic behaviors, better known as �evil� to select theists. And through operation the brain damage can be repaired, psychotic tendencies can be reduced, without the assistance of prayer or an exorcism.

Vanderzyden

Quote:

� From scripture, we see that what God "wants" is for people to freely love him. He will not force himself upon anyone.�

He�s not forcing us to believe in him? For not believing in him he sends us to a hell, the worst punishment imaginable, a boiling lake of right, right? If that�s not force, I don�t know what is. I smell a contradiction here�.

SRB

Quote:

�The idea that people make a free choice to love others makes no sense when viewed in the light of the facts of human psychology.�

That�s a very interesting point.

Jobar · 10-30-2002, 09:12 PM

Vanderzyden, we've discussed whether God has free will- how about Satan? Since he rebelled against God, I would say that of necessity he is free to do good or evil. And remember some sects of Christianity think that the lake of fire in Revelations is only for Satan and the other rebellious angels.

Yet I also understand that the gift of free will was what set man above the angels- and this gift is what caused Satan to rebel. (I don't know if that's biblical- I think it's not- but it is the argument used by many apologists.)

So, how can a creature without free will (Satan) rebel against its maker unless such rebellion was the will of the maker?

Answerer · 10-31-2002, 02:48 AM

Frankly speaking, I don't see why God had to give free will to his creations(humans and angels) since He only wanted to see His creations chosing the 'right' or good path(chrisitan path). I mean if God really enjoying giving free will, He should also respect all the different choices(whether good or bad) that all His creations had made rather than punish them in the end. What a tyrant.

10-31-2002, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture:

What is a - �thinginess�? Anyhow, I can�t show you something that doesn�t exist. There is no such thing as �evil�.

That is exactly my point. Evil does not exist and things that do exist can therefore not have any evil about them. Evil exist only in our temporal mind and is based on our fear that we will lose our external perception of reality until we get drunk in a delirium of sorts.

10-31-2002, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer:
Frankly speaking, I don't see why God had to give free will to his creations(humans and angels)

It is a misconception that God gave humans a free will because man "wanted to be like god" and create for himself a sense of good and evil wherein he could choose between good and evil.

The choice between good and evil is what created the concept evil with the subsequent notion that choices needed to be made. In fact, the expulsion from Eden is the inevitable result of good and evil and our return to Eden will be when this paradox has been resolved in the neuter "I AM" position that born out of the controversy between good and evil.

Vanderzyden · 10-31-2002, 09:00 AM

SRB,

Love happens only in the context of a relationship. We decide to form these relationships, and may avoid them if we don't want to "be involved". Tell me, do you choose to engage in relationships or not?

Any person may intentionally avoid situations where she might be drawn into a romantic encounter.
We see examples round us every day of those who decide they no longer love their spouse, and seek a divorce. I may choose to love my fellow man, despite his abusive treatment. Though he would kill me, I may still love him because I recognize his humanity.

Similarly, a person may choose to love their Creator, having an "attitude" of gratitude and adoration for the wonders that he has performed.

In response to your last point, I would ask: Who says that Satan will continue to exist? Why must God destroy him immediately? If humans still have the propensity to choose not to love God whether Satan exists or not, then God must still make provision for the potential "wrong" choices that can be made, regardless of who makes them.

John

SRB · 10-31-2002, 10:17 AM

John,

I do agree that people exercise control over their future attitudes in an indirect way. If I deliberately choose to spend time with person X then I increase the chance that I will come to love X, as compared to a situation where I never attempt to meet X at all. Such influence is, however, (i) indirect, and (ii) weak. There is no sense in which I can be said to have chosen to love X by performing actions of weak influence in an attempt to indirectly influence myself to love X. Christians typically presuppose that people can influence whom they love in a way that is (i) direct and (ii) strong. Christians typically believe that when confronted by missionaries, nonbelievers either choose to love Jesus or choose to reject him. Those ideas are based on an erroneous understanding of human psychology. Attitudes/dispositions are not the kinds of things we have direct control over and make choices about. Incidentally, the same is true of beliefs. I am incapable of causing myself to hold Christian beliefs, even if I should want to do such a thing.

I do think that if A loves B then A and B each have a choice with regard whether they get involved "in a relationship" (e.g. by spending lots of time together and doing things in each other's interests). If A lacks love of B, however, then A has no such choice. You can hardly get into a relationship with someone you are totally unconcerned about. I am assuming that "being in a relationship" requires having certain positive attitudes/dispositions toward the other party.

As for the issue of Satan, presumably he is doing some harmful things that God wishes he wasn't doing. The question then becomes, "Why would God permit Satan to do those things?" The idea that God lets Satan cause harm through respect for Satan's free will doesn't stand up. Good people don't permit others to cause great harm they could prevent out of respect for free will.

SRB

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: SRB ]

Answerer · 11-01-2002, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


It is a misconception that God gave humans a free will because man "wanted to be like god" and create for himself a sense of good and evil wherein he could choose between good and evil.

No, you misunderstand me, I never said that man wanted to be like God, rather I said that it is God wanted man to be righteous and this contradicts His purpose of giving them free will in the first place and punishing them later. And I call God tyrant because of His unreasonable request and his non-regard for the choices made by his creations.

Keith Russell · 11-01-2002, 07:52 AM

Greetings:

'God' is not a tyrant; 'God' does not exist, and thus cannot 'be' anything.

But, some of the people who believe in 'God', have certainly described 'Him' as being tyrannical.

Keith.

10-31-2002, 10:17 AM	#28
SRB Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK Posts: 227	John, I do agree that people exercise control over their future attitudes in an indirect way. If I deliberately choose to spend time with person X then I increase the chance that I will come to love X, as compared to a situation where I never attempt to meet X at all. Such influence is, however, (i) indirect, and (ii) weak. There is no sense in which I can be said to have chosen to love X by performing actions of weak influence in an attempt to indirectly influence myself to love X. Christians typically presuppose that people can influence whom they love in a way that is (i) direct and (ii) strong. Christians typically believe that when confronted by missionaries, nonbelievers either choose to love Jesus or choose to reject him. Those ideas are based on an erroneous understanding of human psychology. Attitudes/dispositions are not the kinds of things we have direct control over and make choices about. Incidentally, the same is true of beliefs. I am incapable of causing myself to hold Christian beliefs, even if I should want to do such a thing. I do think that if A loves B then A and B each have a choice with regard whether they get involved "in a relationship" (e.g. by spending lots of time together and doing things in each other's interests). If A lacks love of B, however, then A has no such choice. You can hardly get into a relationship with someone you are totally unconcerned about. I am assuming that "being in a relationship" requires having certain positive attitudes/dispositions toward the other party. As for the issue of Satan, presumably he is doing some harmful things that God wishes he wasn't doing. The question then becomes, "Why would God permit Satan to do those things?" The idea that God lets Satan cause harm through respect for Satan's free will doesn't stand up. Good people don't permit others to cause great harm they could prevent out of respect for free will. SRB [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: SRB ]</p>

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10-30-2002, 05:16 PM	#21
SRB Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK Posts: 227	Originally posted by Vanderzyden: From scripture, we see that what God "wants" is for people to freely love him. He will not force himself upon anyone. SRB Love is an attitude towards other people and an inclination to do what is in their best interests. Our attitudes and inclinations (as opposed to our actions) towards others are formed involuntarily based on our experiences. You can no more freely choose to love someone than you can freely choose to grow a foot taller. If you doubt me, please now attempt to wilfully control your attitudes towards other people. For example, try to make yourself no longer love your family or some other loved one. You will fail. The idea that people make a free choice to love others makes no sense when viewed in the light of the facts of human psychology. Even if it were granted that people do have wilful control over who they love, people could have a free choice to perform morally wrong actions even if Satan did not exist. So what you said would still fail to explain why God allows Satan to exist, even on the assumption that people do have such control. SRB

10-30-2002, 09:12 PM	#23
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Vanderzyden, we've discussed whether God has free will- how about Satan? Since he rebelled against God, I would say that of necessity he is free to do good or evil. And remember some sects of Christianity think that the lake of fire in Revelations is only for Satan and the other rebellious angels. Yet I also understand that the gift of free will was what set man above the angels- and this gift is what caused Satan to rebel. (I don't know if that's biblical- I think it's not- but it is the argument used by many apologists.) So, how can a creature without free will (Satan) rebel against its maker unless such rebellion was the will of the maker?

10-31-2002, 02:48 AM	#24
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Frankly speaking, I don't see why God had to give free will to his creations(humans and angels) since He only wanted to see His creations chosing the 'right' or good path(chrisitan path). I mean if God really enjoying giving free will, He should also respect all the different choices(whether good or bad) that all His creations had made rather than punish them in the end. What a tyrant.

10-31-2002, 09:00 AM	#27
Vanderzyden Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 694	SRB, Love happens only in the context of a relationship. We decide to form these relationships, and may avoid them if we don't want to "be involved". Tell me, do you choose to engage in relationships or not? Any person may intentionally avoid situations where she might be drawn into a romantic encounter. We see examples round us every day of those who decide they no longer love their spouse, and seek a divorce. I may choose to love my fellow man, despite his abusive treatment. Though he would kill me, I may still love him because I recognize his humanity. Similarly, a person may choose to love their Creator, having an "attitude" of gratitude and adoration for the wonders that he has performed. In response to your last point, I would ask: Who says that Satan will continue to exist? Why must God destroy him immediately? If humans still have the propensity to choose not to love God whether Satan exists or not, then God must still make provision for the potential "wrong" choices that can be made, regardless of who makes them. John

11-01-2002, 07:52 AM	#30
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: 'God' is not a tyrant; 'God' does not exist, and thus cannot 'be' anything. But, some of the people who believe in 'God', have certainly described 'Him' as being tyrannical. Keith.

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