Freethought & Rationalism Archive

K · 10-25-2002, 07:33 AM

In a thread that was discussing proofs of God, the question of God's power came up. Specifically, whether God or Satan would be considered more powerful.

On the one hand, God is creditted with creating the universe and everybody.

On the other hand, God apparently wants all of His creatures to live with Him forever. But Satan has the power to corrupt the vast majority of God's beloved children to the point where God can not bear to have them in His presence.

Doesn't that make Satan more powerful than God? Satan has always won, continues to win, and (we are told) will always win the battle for souls. And God is powerless to stop him.

Wouldn't Satan be far more deserving of the term omnipotent? What good is the power to create if someone else has the power to change your creations into something you detest?

Jamie_L · 10-25-2002, 11:56 AM

Alternatively, it shows that God is all powerful, but doesn't really want all his creations to live with him forever. He'd rather see them tricked, deceived, and lost for all eternity.

Jamie

K · 10-25-2002, 12:28 PM

Jamie:

That's a good point. Why else would He have created Satan? Unless He accidentally created Satan more powerful than Himself.

Nickle · 10-25-2002, 12:37 PM

God Vs. Satan?

Well I haven't seen the over/under, but I see a tie in the 12th, followed by a flash of light as these two non-existant being cancel each other out.

sorry, continue on...

Uzzah · 10-25-2002, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
<strong>Unless He accidentally created Satan more powerful than Himself.</strong>

Is this even possible though? For a being to create something more powerful than himself? I know "god" is supposedly above our little human understanding, but this kinda breaks the bank on everything we know.

Uzzah

K · 10-25-2002, 12:56 PM

Nickle:

Creation and annihilation. Two equal and opposite entities that are completely converted into free energy upon contact. Not too shabby.

That would mean that God and Satan are equally powerful and as long as they never come in contact with each other, the universe will be ok.

K · 10-25-2002, 01:03 PM

Uzzah:

That's the whole trouble with trying to justify logically impossible beings. It just doesn't work with the universe that we live in.

The reason I started this topic was to try to get an honest description of the purported power of God. The theists I've run into have had a knack for removing one of God's powers when it presents a logical contradiction and then putting right back when discussing other aspects of God.

That's why God didn't create evil (because you can't point to it), but He did create goodness (even though you can't point to it).

sandlewood · 10-25-2002, 01:05 PM

I�m going to play devil�s advocate for a moment and take the theist side, since I think I can predict what the response will be. God is not powerless to stop Satan. God has created Satan in order to give us humans something to choose between. If there was no Satan, then there would be no choice for us and so God would not get�er�whatever benefit he gets out of being surrounded by humans that chose him instead of Satan. So if a human chooses Satan, it�s not that God is powerless to save him from Satan. Rather he just let�s that person have the choice he made.

K · 10-25-2002, 02:07 PM

sandlewood:

That's a representation, but then the theist is forced to admit that God created Satan and God created evil. That's something that many of them don't want to do. They'd prefer to say that Satan chose to be bad and that's how evil came about.

Jerry Love · 10-25-2002, 03:15 PM

The serious response I have been getting from Christians lately?

It brings glory to God to have people resist sin and worship him. It brings glory to God to punish sinners. Satan is allowed to corrupt people because that glorifies God and anything that glorifies God is good.

10-25-2002, 07:33 AM	#1
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	God vs. Satan In a thread that was discussing proofs of God, the question of God's power came up. Specifically, whether God or Satan would be considered more powerful. On the one hand, God is creditted with creating the universe and everybody. On the other hand, God apparently wants all of His creatures to live with Him forever. But Satan has the power to corrupt the vast majority of God's beloved children to the point where God can not bear to have them in His presence. Doesn't that make Satan more powerful than God? Satan has always won, continues to win, and (we are told) will always win the battle for souls. And God is powerless to stop him. Wouldn't Satan be far more deserving of the term omnipotent? What good is the power to create if someone else has the power to change your creations into something you detest?

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10-25-2002, 11:56 AM	#2
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Alternatively, it shows that God is all powerful, but doesn't really want all his creations to live with him forever. He'd rather see them tricked, deceived, and lost for all eternity. Jamie

10-25-2002, 12:28 PM	#3
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Jamie: That's a good point. Why else would He have created Satan? Unless He accidentally created Satan more powerful than Himself.

10-25-2002, 12:37 PM	#4
Nickle Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 385	God Vs. Satan? Well I haven't seen the over/under, but I see a tie in the 12th, followed by a flash of light as these two non-existant being cancel each other out. sorry, continue on...

10-25-2002, 12:56 PM	#6
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Nickle: Creation and annihilation. Two equal and opposite entities that are completely converted into free energy upon contact. Not too shabby. That would mean that God and Satan are equally powerful and as long as they never come in contact with each other, the universe will be ok.

10-25-2002, 01:03 PM	#7
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Uzzah: That's the whole trouble with trying to justify logically impossible beings. It just doesn't work with the universe that we live in. The reason I started this topic was to try to get an honest description of the purported power of God. The theists I've run into have had a knack for removing one of God's powers when it presents a logical contradiction and then putting right back when discussing other aspects of God. That's why God didn't create evil (because you can't point to it), but He did create goodness (even though you can't point to it).

10-25-2002, 01:05 PM	#8
sandlewood Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 264	I�m going to play devil�s advocate for a moment and take the theist side, since I think I can predict what the response will be. God is not powerless to stop Satan. God has created Satan in order to give us humans something to choose between. If there was no Satan, then there would be no choice for us and so God would not get�er�whatever benefit he gets out of being surrounded by humans that chose him instead of Satan. So if a human chooses Satan, it�s not that God is powerless to save him from Satan. Rather he just let�s that person have the choice he made.

10-25-2002, 02:07 PM	#9
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	sandlewood: That's a representation, but then the theist is forced to admit that God created Satan and God created evil. That's something that many of them don't want to do. They'd prefer to say that Satan chose to be bad and that's how evil came about.

10-25-2002, 03:15 PM	#10
Jerry Love Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Riverview, FL Posts: 13	The serious response I have been getting from Christians lately? It brings glory to God to have people resist sin and worship him. It brings glory to God to punish sinners. Satan is allowed to corrupt people because that glorifies God and anything that glorifies God is good.

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