Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Queen of Swords · 06-08-2003, 01:41 AM

On a related note, did anything prevent God the Holy Spirit from sacrificing himself? If not, why didn't he do it instead of Jesus?

My guess is, they all drew straws and Jesus picked the shortest one.

Jimmy Higgins · 06-08-2003, 11:18 AM

The question still stands. Why did God ask for an archaic manner of atonement, a manner which was outdated even then?

Biff the unclean · 06-08-2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins
The question still stands. Why did God ask for an archaic manner of atonement, a manner which was outdated even then?

More than "outdated" it was forbidden by this same God.

Mageth · 06-08-2003, 02:07 PM

And why didn't he come down himself? Is god the father a coward? Think of it this way - is it harder to go to war or to send your son to war?

It's worse than that - God (whether Father, Son, or Holy Spook) did not die on the cross - a human did. Unless you think God can die. Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" God didn't even stick around to watch, apparently, and sure doesn't seem to be doing anything to help the poor fellow out. I like to say that God was not man enough to die himself- he had to find a surrogate human to do it for him.

In any event, whatever happened, the god/man Jesus was up and about, running around, better than ever, less than 40 hours later. Not much of a "death", if you ask me.

Sabine Grant · 06-08-2003, 02:52 PM

Bonjour Mageth... you mentionned earlier in comparaison the requirement for death thru crucifixion. I am afraid humans use barbaric methods of executions... being fried or lethaly injected or gassed is a human requirement for one who was sentenced to be executed. Just an aside note. Add to those methods the agony of awaiting for years for that moment to come. No more purpose. No more validation of being meaningful to anyone. The knowledge that other human beings may be cheering outside for your own death.....we do not have much to say in evaluating God allowing that form of execution.... do we? unless we reject the death penalty of course.
That was not said to argue your arguments but to point that we as humans commit atrocities even under the name of justice.

Mageth · 06-08-2003, 03:06 PM

Bonjour, Sabine:

But in the OT laws, did not God assign sacrifice of animals (a form of "execution", I would say) as a ritual to be "religiously" performed to meet some need of God's? And isn't Christ's "sacrifice" on the Cross linked (by many apologists, anyway) back to those sacrifices?

And as I said earlier, isn't Jesus portrayed as willingly participating in, allowing, the crucifixion? If Jesus was God, such willing participation implied there was some purpose or need for such an execution (that, indeed, seems to be the consensus of Christian apology). If Jesus was God, and did not want to be executed, then there would have been no crucifixion, no?

Sabine Grant · 06-08-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Bonjour, Sabine:

But in the OT laws, did not God assign sacrifice of animals (a form of "execution", I would say) as a ritual to be "religiously" performed to meet some need of God's? And isn't Christ's "sacrifice" on the Cross linked (by many apologists, anyway) back to those sacrifices?

And as I said earlier, isn't Jesus portrayed as willingly participating in, allowing, the crucifixion? If Jesus was God, such willing participation implied there was some purpose or need for such an execution (that, indeed, seems to be the consensus of Christian apology). If Jesus was God, and did not want to be executed, then there would have been no crucifixion, no?

In his last hours and before his arrest Christ prayed I believe 3 times..... " that this cup be taken away from my lips but thy Will be done not mine". Was it soly the human part of Christ aknowledging that he would prefer to not " drink that cup"? In essence it seems to me that Christ debated the purpose of his crucifixion but yet concieded to God's Will being done.
I believe that the notion of Christ being the" sacrificial lamb" is anchored in the minds of all christians ( no need to be an apologist to have that notion).
Actualy in the OT, the ram caught in the thorns and thistles which appears to be sacrified as an offering to God by Abraham after he releases Isaac, symbolizes that God is the sole provider of the sacrificial " lamb"..... that no personal sacrifices should be needed anylonger. The ram is considered to represent Christ.
Is it the concept that Christ could have been human and divine both that in your opinion invalidates his execution? I am trying to understand which part invalidates it as a sacrifice provided by God only.

winstonjen · 06-08-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
He lost his mortal life, and suffered the most excrutiating torture in human history ( yes more so than anyone else, not just because of the physical wounds, but the emotional and mental as well - so much stress that he sweat blood before the execution)

Let me ask you this Dave. Suppose your worst enemy was on his death bed. Would you endure crucifiction to save him from death, even if you'd come back to life with nothing you didn't already have before death?

Why would he bleed blood unless he was scared? And why would he be scared if he KNEW he would come back to life and go to heaven?

For an immortal being to 'sacrifice' 30 years of bliss is nothing - it would be like Bill Gates giving away $100.

winstonjen · 06-08-2003, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
But there was no unplayable debt. The Jews never heard of such a thing.

And to 'play' off the debt, you have to 'play' with god's genitals, or through one of his representatives, known as pedophile priests.

Biff the unclean · 06-08-2003, 04:23 PM

One stray letter gets in and you are all over me,...sheeees.
But that's okay, I'll forgive you. Let's see, I can have my son tortured and murdered...yeah that will make me forgive you, because I'm so loving.

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06-08-2003, 01:41 AM	#61
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	On a related note, did anything prevent God the Holy Spirit from sacrificing himself? If not, why didn't he do it instead of Jesus? My guess is, they all drew straws and Jesus picked the shortest one.

06-08-2003, 11:18 AM	#62
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	The question still stands. Why did God ask for an archaic manner of atonement, a manner which was outdated even then?

06-08-2003, 02:07 PM	#64
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	And why didn't he come down himself? Is god the father a coward? Think of it this way - is it harder to go to war or to send your son to war? It's worse than that - God (whether Father, Son, or Holy Spook) did not die on the cross - a human did. Unless you think God can die. Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" God didn't even stick around to watch, apparently, and sure doesn't seem to be doing anything to help the poor fellow out. I like to say that God was not man enough to die himself- he had to find a surrogate human to do it for him. In any event, whatever happened, the god/man Jesus was up and about, running around, better than ever, less than 40 hours later. Not much of a "death", if you ask me.

06-08-2003, 02:52 PM	#65
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Bonjour Mageth... you mentionned earlier in comparaison the requirement for death thru crucifixion. I am afraid humans use barbaric methods of executions... being fried or lethaly injected or gassed is a human requirement for one who was sentenced to be executed. Just an aside note. Add to those methods the agony of awaiting for years for that moment to come. No more purpose. No more validation of being meaningful to anyone. The knowledge that other human beings may be cheering outside for your own death.....we do not have much to say in evaluating God allowing that form of execution.... do we? unless we reject the death penalty of course. That was not said to argue your arguments but to point that we as humans commit atrocities even under the name of justice.

06-08-2003, 03:06 PM	#66
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Bonjour, Sabine: But in the OT laws, did not God assign sacrifice of animals (a form of "execution", I would say) as a ritual to be "religiously" performed to meet some need of God's? And isn't Christ's "sacrifice" on the Cross linked (by many apologists, anyway) back to those sacrifices? And as I said earlier, isn't Jesus portrayed as willingly participating in, allowing, the crucifixion? If Jesus was God, such willing participation implied there was some purpose or need for such an execution (that, indeed, seems to be the consensus of Christian apology). If Jesus was God, and did not want to be executed, then there would have been no crucifixion, no?

06-08-2003, 04:23 PM	#70
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	One stray letter gets in and you are all over me,...sheeees. But that's okay, I'll forgive you. Let's see, I can have my son tortured and murdered...yeah that will make me forgive you, because I'm so loving.

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