HelenM

Well, not really, actually.

This is how the theology of Bible-believing Christianity [fundi-ism] goes: any and every sin a person commits makes them deserving of hell. Jesus died to pay the price of every sin, for those who believe.

Therefore suicide is not a determinor of whether a person goes to hell or not. It, like any 'sin' is paid for, in the case of a believer, or not, in the case of a non-believer. People go to hell for not believing, rather than for committing suicide.

Catholics have a hierarchy of sins and perhaps to them suicide is considered a particularly serious one. But Bible-believing Christians have a binary system in which either you're forgiven all sins through faith in Christ [or, some say, some implicit equivalent] - or you're going to hell anyway.

Therefore, in the theology of Bible-believing Christians - suicide doesn't determine where you go - only how you get there...

Helen

Ut

lpetrich,

You already know the answer: "doublethink"

Scrambles

Helen,

The thing is, if you truly believed in an afterlife, then you would know that even though your body will die that you are going to survive, right? So why should a survival reaction kick in?

The reason I chose a crisis situation was because of immediacy. I think that if someone says they are not afraid to die, then they should not be afraid to die NOW. If you say you are not afraid of death, but only when it's going to happen in the dim and distant future, the only reason you can say this is that you are detaching yourself from events in the future.

Scrambles

diana

This is how the theology of Bible-believing Christianity [fundi-ism] goes: any and every sin a person commits makes them deserving of hell. Jesus died to pay the price of every sin, for those who believe.

Therefore suicide is not a determinor of whether a person goes to hell or not. It, like any 'sin' is paid for, in the case of a believer, or not, in the case of a non-believer. People go to hell for not believing, rather than for committing suicide.

Catholics have a hierarchy of sins and perhaps to them suicide is considered a particularly serious one. But Bible-believing Christians have a binary system in which either you're forgiven all sins through faith in Christ [or, some say, some implicit equivalent] - or you're going to hell anyway.

Therefore, in the theology of Bible-believing Christians - suicide doesn't determine where you go - only how you get there...

In reading your explanation, I'm led to believe that if I am a believer, I am forgiven *all* of my sins, so I can then commit mass murder, rape a child, steal from the poor, then leap from a building--and I go to heaven, because all of my sins have been forgiven.

I think there's something vital missing, such as repentance. The "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine is severely flawed. Yes...repentance is required before I am saved, but isn't it necessary to continue in the straight and narrow after I believe?

Can you fall from grace? It's all a matter of doctrine, I think, and different fundamentalists will differ in their answers.

In the fundamentalist strain I was raised in, it was very possible--nay, unavoidable, "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"--to fall from grace. The upside of this is that it ensures the faithful Xn continues to put forth effort to be righteous. The downside is the crippling guilt and fear that comes with this mindset.

I should have specified that I was speaking to the beliefs of just one flavor of Xn--not the whole.

So I guess that makes lpetrich's question far more valid than I thought.

d

Janaya

Exactly.

Exactly. The point in life (if undefined) is mol irrevalent if this is the only life we have. So we must cling to life irregardless (in hope of, I assume, of discovering that purpose).

Exactly.

Yes. But no more than the rest of us. In my 38 years of life, every funeral I've ever attended was absolutely full of grief. This would not be true if Christians were looking forward to death. If I were a Christian I would certainly be looking forward to death. To be re-united with the one who saved me. To be filled with happiness and joy. I mean, Happiness and Joy fulfilled and neverending. Why would I fear death?

Actually, I heard a story that was very powerful to me as a believer. I do not know if it actually happened, or if it was urban legend, it didn't matter at the time. I was told of a college student that was faced with a gunman who was just looking for any excuse to pull the trigger. The gun was pushed into his stomach and I can't remember exactly what he was asked but the alternative was to be shot. And he joyfully said, (mol) Go ahead and shoot, Praise the Lord, I'll be in heaven with my Savior. Wow, that was powerful. It was a confirming factor for me as a believer. I think, intellectually, that I concluded that since life is so jealously guarded genetically that there must be something to this.
The problem is that this was diametrically opposed by the actions of the believers that I knew at the time. Not so much by theirs words as by their actions. They still grieve just as much as non-believers at the graveside.

So for me it is not so much that they don't commit suicide as they do not celebrate death.

HelenM

Diana, yes, I should not have implied that all fundamentalists believe 'once saved, always saved'.

The fundamentalists who don't believe 'once saved, always saved', criticize that doctrine pretty much on the same basis you did.

But, those who do believe it argue that it in no way means God doesn't care whether people sin.

It's just that their reason for not sinning isn't to keep themselves out of hell but because they want to obey the God who loved them enough to save them from it, already.

Those who believe it say that those who don't, in fact believe in salvation by works, not grace, because it is their own good works that keep them out of hell, not Jesus' death on their behalf.

Both groups agree that repentance is part of saving faith. Repentance in the Bible means 'a change of mind about one's own sin and a turning to God', not 'an emotional regret', btw.

As you may know, people who believe 'once saved, always saved' might well resolve the dilemma of someone who is sinning with abandon yet claims to be a Christian, by saying they probably aren't really saved, else they'd have a God-given desire to obey God, from the Holy Spirit, which they don't seem to have.

take care
Helen

HelenM

Scrambles I take your point that "if someone says they are not afraid to die, then they should not be afraid to die NOW". I agree.

However, as I tried to explain, it seems to me that the way our bodies work is likely to produce initial fear before we can think through whatever will calm us, produce resolve and courage in the face of death, etc. Our bodies don't want to die and will fight it, I believe, as it were. But we can probably overcome that given a little time to prepare ourselves...if we have reason enough to submit to death...

Not that I really know much about it so these are suppositions of mine rather than established knowledge.

take care
Helen

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

NFLP

[I may not have gotten your gist...but {for me}]...

If we are not here to contribute to one anothers' growth, then nothing else makes sense---even if there may not be a Creator-who-cares. When viewed from that direction, it becomes no longer important to prove who has the right Imaginary Friend.

HelenM

I don't know whether you've read it - the New Testament is full of comments, from beginning to end, that we ought to contribute to one another's growth.

Ask your fiance!

Bible-Believing Christians contribute to the growth of others according to how they understand God to be calling them to contribute, based on what they read in the Bible and how they interpret it.

In general I think that trying to prove one is right has limited value and importance, whether one is trying to prove one has the right Imaginary friend, or trying to prove something else.

'Being right' is not always the most important thing, imo.

take care
Helen

Scrambles

Helen,

OK, that seems reasonable. There could be a purely physical reaction to a life-threatening situation. BUT I think that there are two different situations here.

1) Say you are trying to commit suicide by putting a plastic bag over your head and waiting. This may cause a physical response, that you can't control, of ripping the bag off your head when the oxygen gets low. I think I've heard of this happening once...?

2) Gun to your head situation as before.

In 1) Your body is experiencing physical stress. In 2) the danger or lack-of is what your mind makes of it. If you truly believe in life after death (i.e. that effectively you are not going to die whether the trigger is pulled or not) then I don't think there should be a physical fear response. On the other hand in (1), something is actually happening to your body so I would expect that a physical reaction will happen (or not) independent of believe in an afterlife.

I think you disagree. That's fine, I'm just clarifying my position. We can end it there if u like.


Scrambles