Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PJPSYCO · 05-19-2002, 08:27 PM

It's always said that religion is versus science, but I have not found that to be the case. I have found more of a force of religion to fight love. A simple interaction where your brain pumps you full of steriods, and painkillers when you interact with something.

God's come off as this giant power stuggle. The christian god is a personified megalomainia. It's all about being the better, the more, the ultimate. Love on the other hand is an idea where we come together, and make multiples into one. All parts become equal with love. It's never about you, it's about the other people who are with you.

'God is love' makes perfect sence if one is trying to replace love with their own desires for power. Its why many religious look like zombies. They have a false love. They say they will love you, but only if you do what they say. Using the power of love to control. Perverting loves goals to their own means. When someone who truly loves comes though they feel threatened and lash out. This is seen quite clearly when atheists respond to loss of religion suicide threats with compasion, and try to help them with their lack of self worth. Love becomes that which religon fears. It is the bane of the religious, what they truly fight. The stuggle is also heard in lovers of different faiths, there is an inner struggle between their religion and their connection to other people.

What makes the religious even more scared, is that love has been explained in materialist terms, and has been proven to be real. Their god has not. Love, the bane of religion, is more real than their god. It can take over and replace religion. Everone can be together with no one at the top. True equality making all happy.

Sephiroth · 05-20-2002, 01:30 AM

I was never a fan of conditional love myself. Good post.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Sephiroth ]</p>

spurly · 03-30-2003, 08:57 PM

Christianity is all about love. Some Christians don't do a good job of getting that truth out because they think that Christianity is all about what they can get out of it, but that simply is not the case.

The story of God and Christ is a story of love. His love led him to create. When we chose to walk away from his love and lost Paradise, then his love led him to do everything possible to get us back.

That culminated in the death of Jesus on the cross. Love is what led him to the cross, when he did not want to go.

And now, because of Jesus, we can get back to the relationship of love we were created to live in from the very beginning. And when we do that, our love for our fellow man will grow by leaps and bound. "They will know you are my disciples if you have love one for another" - Jesus.

Kevin

Queen of Swords · 03-30-2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by spurly
The story of God and Christ is a story of love. His love led him to create.

If he loved Adam and Eve, why didn't he allow them one mistake? Whatever happened to love being patient and forgiving and merciful? He loved them so much that he kicked them out after one screw-up where 1. they were tempted and 2. they didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil to know what they were doing was wrong. That's not love, that's control-freak behavior.

When we chose to walk away from his love and lost Paradise, then his love led him to do everything possible to get us back.

Adam and Eve chose to become like him, and since most children want to be like their parents, I'd hardly call this walking away from his love. As for his love doing anything possible to get us back, if he fails to get us back, he tortures us in hell forever. That's not love, that's jealous, vindictive behavior.

Radorth · 03-31-2003, 09:08 AM

Quote:

The christian god is a personified megalomainia. It's all about being the better, the more, the ultimate. Love on the other hand is an idea where we come together, and make multiples into one. All parts become equal with love. It's never about you, it's about the other people who are with you.

Really? All the apostles and the early fathers said to put others first. Peter said women should not even adorn their hair. Paul said God favors and uses "the things that are nothing." Jesus siad a publican who stood in the back of the temple beating his breast "went away justified" in God's eyes. He said the meek would inherit the earth and noted the generosity of woman who quietly gave her last two mites. But I suppose she was a meglomaniac compared to Bill Gates, eh?

What NT translation are you reading, BTW?

Now if you want to talk about the Pharisees who loved the chief seats, hey, you might have something resembling a case. I know. It's hard to make such distinctions, especially at your age.

Rad

Radorth · 03-31-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

If he loved Adam and Eve, why didn't he allow them one mistake?

Well maybe if they recognized it as a sin, he would have. Certainly people who later did repent were forgiven and experienced much favor from God. The story is an allegorical revelation anyway about the the perils of self-will, self-determination and fulfilling legitimate needs YOUR way. It's not about making "one mistake."

Rad

Yellum Notnef · 03-31-2003, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I know. It's hard to make such distinctions, especially at your age.

<<<loud whistle sound>>>

Wtf????

How the hell do you know how old PJPSYCO is? Can "soothsayers" such as yourself read peoples minds and uncover info not available to the rest of us?
Or is this yet another case of you trying to play the age card?
<<Paraphrasing here "I'm Radorth and I'm right because I'm old or at least older than you are">>>

Lets not forget how badly this tactic backfired on you when you suggested Biff was a 25 year old JM'er.

Queen of Swords · 03-31-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Radorth
Well maybe if they recognized it as a sin, he would have.

Is this supported by biblical evidence? In other words, does the bible say that Adam and Eve did not recognize what they had done as wrong, but if they did, god might have forgiven them?

The story is an allegorical revelation anyway about the the perils of self-will, self-determination and fulfilling legitimate needs YOUR way. It's not about making "one mistake."

The point I was making was that love is supposed to be forgiving and merciful. I didn't see it as merciful to kick them out of the garden for one mistake, especially since they didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit.

JEST2ASK · 03-31-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PJPSYCO
<<< Skipp>>
God's come off as this giant power stuggle. The christian god is a personified megalomainia. It's all about being the better, the more, the ultimate. Love on the other hand is an idea where we come together, and make multiples into one. All parts become equal with love. It's never about you, it's about the other people who are with you.

<<< Skip>> LOVE, the bane of religion, is more real than their god. It can take over and replace religion. Everone can be together with no one at the top. True equality making all happy.

:notworthy: :notworthy: Well said ... ( Maybe a little too idealistic/ optomistic .... but I like the basic premise)

1-Corinthians 13 is a wonderful expression of this and one of the reasons I disagree with John 3:16 (IMO) God did not send Jesus into the world out of Love but rather to insure his will.

Reading Matthew 24/25 and Revelation speaks to the true nature of the J/C god an avenging, punishing force willing to cause or let countless beings suffer because those are the rules set (I consider it cruel torture to knowingly inflict pain). Even if you only consider the "tempoary" nature of this physical world and not the afterlife it still is unecessary.

JEST2ASK · 03-31-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Really? All the apostles and the early fathers said to put others first. Peter said women should not even adorn their hair. Paul said God favors and uses "the things that are nothing." Jesus siad a publican who stood in the back of the temple beating his breast "went away justified" in God's eyes. He said the meek would inherit the earth and noted the generosity of woman who quietly gave her last two mites. But I suppose she was a meglomaniac compared to Bill Gates, eh?

What NT translation are you reading, BTW?

Now if you want to talk about the Pharisees who loved the chief seats, hey, you might have something resembling a case. I know. It's hard to make such distinctions, especially at your age.

Rad

BUT it is all about god demanding / requiring obediance & worship.

God must be first & foremost .... I know you & Spurly believe that to be reasonable (and our fitting attitude) however I don't.

05-19-2002, 08:27 PM	#1
PJPSYCO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rolla, Missouri Posts: 830	Religion VS Love It's always said that religion is versus science, but I have not found that to be the case. I have found more of a force of religion to fight love. A simple interaction where your brain pumps you full of steriods, and painkillers when you interact with something. God's come off as this giant power stuggle. The christian god is a personified megalomainia. It's all about being the better, the more, the ultimate. Love on the other hand is an idea where we come together, and make multiples into one. All parts become equal with love. It's never about you, it's about the other people who are with you. 'God is love' makes perfect sence if one is trying to replace love with their own desires for power. Its why many religious look like zombies. They have a false love. They say they will love you, but only if you do what they say. Using the power of love to control. Perverting loves goals to their own means. When someone who truly loves comes though they feel threatened and lash out. This is seen quite clearly when atheists respond to loss of religion suicide threats with compasion, and try to help them with their lack of self worth. Love becomes that which religon fears. It is the bane of the religious, what they truly fight. The stuggle is also heard in lovers of different faiths, there is an inner struggle between their religion and their connection to other people. What makes the religious even more scared, is that love has been explained in materialist terms, and has been proven to be real. Their god has not. Love, the bane of religion, is more real than their god. It can take over and replace religion. Everone can be together with no one at the top. True equality making all happy.

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05-20-2002, 01:30 AM	#2
Sephiroth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 625	I was never a fan of conditional love myself. Good post. [ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Sephiroth ]</p>

03-30-2003, 08:57 PM	#3
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	Christianity is all about love. Some Christians don't do a good job of getting that truth out because they think that Christianity is all about what they can get out of it, but that simply is not the case. The story of God and Christ is a story of love. His love led him to create. When we chose to walk away from his love and lost Paradise, then his love led him to do everything possible to get us back. That culminated in the death of Jesus on the cross. Love is what led him to the cross, when he did not want to go. And now, because of Jesus, we can get back to the relationship of love we were created to live in from the very beginning. And when we do that, our love for our fellow man will grow by leaps and bound. "They will know you are my disciples if you have love one for another" - Jesus. Kevin

03-30-2003, 09:11 PM	#4
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by spurly The story of God and Christ is a story of love. His love led him to create. If he loved Adam and Eve, why didn't he allow them one mistake? Whatever happened to love being patient and forgiving and merciful? He loved them so much that he kicked them out after one screw-up where 1. they were tempted and 2. they didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil to know what they were doing was wrong. That's not love, that's control-freak behavior. When we chose to walk away from his love and lost Paradise, then his love led him to do everything possible to get us back. Adam and Eve chose to become like him, and since most children want to be like their parents, I'd hardly call this walking away from his love. As for his love doing anything possible to get us back, if he fails to get us back, he tortures us in hell forever. That's not love, that's jealous, vindictive behavior.

03-31-2003, 12:44 PM	#8
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Radorth Well maybe if they recognized it as a sin, he would have. Is this supported by biblical evidence? In other words, does the bible say that Adam and Eve did not recognize what they had done as wrong, but if they did, god might have forgiven them? The story is an allegorical revelation anyway about the the perils of self-will, self-determination and fulfilling legitimate needs YOUR way. It's not about making "one mistake." The point I was making was that love is supposed to be forgiving and merciful. I didn't see it as merciful to kick them out of the garden for one mistake, especially since they didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit.

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