Theli

I meant something that actually happened. And for a theist to disagree with god, he would have to be a schizo.

HRG

[QUOTE]Originally posted by emotional
How do you come to that conclusion? Have you been brainwashed by Biblical and Qur'anic propaganda that questions about God shouldn't be asked? Why is that if "God did it" then we stop asking questions? I disagree with you here.

"God did it" doesn't sound like a scientific hypothesis (especially since modern-day savants so like to equate science with naturalism). However, it may be true. Upon seeing a biscuit dissolving in a glass of water, you could hypothesise a natural theory by which the biscuit got there. You could also hypothesis a supernatural theory that some external agent (a person) put the biscuit in the glass. Neither explanation obstructs knowledge, and either could be true.
[QUOTE]
Why is this a supernatural explanation ? Have you ever observed a supernatural person (i.e. someone whose mere will can circumvent natural mechanisms) ?

There is no reason why natural explanations cannot include natural intelligent beings, like us.

Regards,
HRG.

Darth Dane

If you believe in God: "God work in mysterious ways"
If you don't believe in God: "everything just is, the universe just is. I don't know why, I am born, I live, I die"

But both those are statements of ignorance, can't you see? The second at least has the virtue of being honest and forthright- and by admitting lack of knowledge, encourages us to search for answers. By saying 'Goddidit' you imply that no further answers are needed, or possible. To do that is to do injustice to the questing powers of our imagination and knowledge!

Ever heard that ignorance is bliss?

Let me rephrase.

If you believe in God: "I don't KNOW if God is, but I believe it, God just is. I don't know why; I am born , I live, I die"

If you don't believe in God: "I don't know if God is, I don't believe it, the universe just is. I don't know why; I am born, I live, I die"


Since we cannot conclusively prove either belief, we are stuck in ignorance. What is a child when it is born? Is it Good or bad? The child/baby knows when something is bad, if it is hungry it screams, because hopefully I will get some food. The child doesn't know that a mother will come and feed it. The child/baby is not judging, because we, the parents, haven't taught it our way of distinguishing between good things and bad things. We teach the child/baby the ways of the world as best we can, based on our parents and the life we have lived.
What is the best answer to a child/baby, when you don't have an answer? To say that God works in mysterious ways, or simply flat out say,"I don't know"?
Believers in God will most likely not admit, that they can not know, objectively, if God is. They have their own personnal proof, a subjective proof.
I believe in God, or in my concept of God. However when you ask me, I cannot prove it to you, I can only use my word, and you must choose to believe me or not.
When I am alone, I know God is, when I am not alone, I still know God is, but I am agnostic in your eyes, because I fall back on this simple answer. I simply do not know, if God is. Maybe my experience with God, was just a glitch in my braincells. How can I ascertain, what happens in my brain, if it is either divine or or simply the human brain acting up?
So what I do, is ask questions. and I notice that if I pick a belief system, that say is Jewish, then I have fallacies on my hand. Jesus was not the son of God and so on. If I pick a christian belief system, then I have other fallacies on my hand, namely that God's(deities) doesn't exist. And so on.
Each belief system is pretty much true in and of itself, but if we look upon it with another system, fallacies occur, unless we can find a way to make all of them true, including atheist.
I have found I want, Love truth beauty wisdom harmony peace, and that these things will make me happy.
So I can see I need to be a good example if I wanna people to do as I do, but they have to choose for themselves.
A man said that if I loved my neighbor as much as I would love myself, then that would be the same as Loving God.
You don't need to believe in God, to choose Love, and a man said that Love is teh key, to bring heaven to earth.

Should we stop seeking knowledge? NO, most definately not.
Shold we stop dreaming of a better world? NO, most certainly not.

Aspire to the heavens is what I will.

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes" (Psalm 82:6-7).

I wonder if this is true? Maybe it is like in the matrix, Mind over matter. I know when I dream, I can fly at will, go through walls, and only becaue I know it is a dream, can I excersize this control.

A zenmaster said "I dreamt I was a butterfly. Now I wonder if I am me that dreamt he was a butterfly, of if I am a butterfly dreaming that he is me"

Is this universe, just someone's dream?


"Jesus said: If the flesh came into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel. But if the spirit (came into existence) because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels. But as for me, I wonder at this, how this great wealth made its home in this poverty."

Truly a wonder, life.



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Darth Dane

Just wanted to add these:

God is more truly imagined than expressed, and He exists more truly than He is imagined.

To wisdom belongs the intellectual apprehension of things eternal; to knowledge, the rational apprehension of things temporal.

If you would attain to what you are not yet, you must always be displeased by what you are. For where you are pleased with yourself there you have remained. Keep adding, keep walking, keep advancing.


Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature.

St. Augustine





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yguy

Me too.

Jamie_L

Given the universe as it is, IF God, THEN:

God intentionally created the universe such that it appears to operate mechanistically, completely without intervention.

God either does not want universal belief, does not care about universal belief, or is unable to create universal belief.

God either wants suffering, does not care about suffering, or is unable to eliminate suffering.

God either does not with to perform identifiable miracles, or he is incapable of performing identifiable miracles.

Jamie

Darth Dane

Jamie_L

Given the universe as it is, IF God, THEN:

God either does not want universal belief, does not care about universal belief, or is unable to create universal belief.

God either wants suffering, does not care about suffering, or is unable to eliminate suffering.


I believe God wants us to choose a universal belief, that all can follow. Namely Love. But he doesn't want to make you, you have to choose it.

God can eliminate suffering through us, if WE choose to. But WE need to choose it.
So measure yourself up, if you don't want to eliminate suffering, or if you are unable to elimante suffering, or do yo not care about suffering, because you don't experience it?





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Selsaral

I hope I understand the topic of this thread correctly.

IMHO if a god exists, then it surely created the universe to appear to humans as if it functions by natural means. If we're talking about the Christian god, he engineers this holy book to describe how he created everything, then left a LOT of contrary evidence around, obviously to fool us. Or he simply didn't make it clear enough that his holy book is all metaphor. Furthermore, the universe he created appears to us that it has come into existence and developed to its current state by purely natural means, and the evidence is so overwhelming as to convince even his die-hard followers (such as the Catholic church 'officially' accepting biological evolution as a fact). Essentially this makes him a trickster, by demanding belief in his existence as the ultimate test of your character (and threatening terrible punishment for the wrong choice), and then engineering the universe with intense care to appear as if it doesn't include him, and to make sure that any legitimate requests for actual concrete proof be considered too arrogant a request to ever be honored. Even further, he tricks us all by making humans innately religious/superstitious, so that the best human being ever born is doomed to fail his test simply by being born in the wrong society, because this person's religious nature produces a faith in the wrong religion that is equally strong to a legitimate believer's faith in the correct religion, thereby making it impossible to convert and be saved from damnation. Finally, this god can't make his true religion even 1% more credible or substantial than all the false religions, tricking athiests and the religious humans both.

Jinto

If God doesn't want to make us follow him, then why does he treaten us with eternal torture for not doing so?

Also, why would God need to eliminate suffering through us? Why not simply exclude it from his original design?

Darth Dane

IMHO if a god exists, then it surely created the universe to appear to humans as if it functions by natural means.

Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature. St. Augustine

Jesus may just have relised how nature worked, and thus, like yogi's claim, was able to walk on water and so on.
Was he helped? Most likely

If we're talking about the Christian god, he engineers this holy book to describe how he created everything, then left a LOT of contrary evidence around, obviously to fool us. Or he simply didn't make it clear enough that his holy book is all metaphor.

God is more truly imagined than expressed, and He exists more truly than He is imagined. St. Augustine

Maybe God wanted to have evidence for both, so that we would have to choose. If God plainly stated it, your freewill would be out the window. Yes when is the word to be taken literal and when mataphorical?

Essentially this makes him a trickster, by demanding belief in his existence as the ultimate test of your character (and threatening terrible punishment for the wrong choice)

Maybe the bit about hell and so on, was to throw us offguard?
Maybe this is the yin with the yang in one book! What is white and what is black?

.. and then engineering the universe with intense care to appear as if it doesn't include him, and to make sure that any legitimate requests for actual concrete proof be considered too arrogant a request to ever be honored.

You must believe on your own! and whatever you wish to believe God will give you. "ask and you shall be given"

Even further, he tricks us all by making humans innately religious/superstitious, so that the best human being ever born is doomed to fail his test simply by being born in the wrong society, because this person's religious nature produces a faith in the wrong religion that is equally strong to a legitimate believer's faith in the correct religion, thereby making it impossible to convert and be saved from damnation.

You must believe on your own, even though the whole world seems of teh opposite opinion.

Finally, this god can't make his true religion even 1% more credible or substantial than all the false religions, tricking athiests and the religious humans both.

You have to believe on your own, that Love is teh key. Turn your cheek at every turn, as God turns God's cheek every time you hurt God.


Maybe?




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