HelenM

I'd enjoy that

There are a few others. I expect you'll run into them sooner or later. One can usually tell from a person's posts and/or profile whether they are a Christian.

I was responding with why one of the Christians had 'vanished' off this thread.

Helen

Sabine Grant

Why do you separate protestants from calvinists or do you mean differenciating between reformed theology inspired by Luther and further works pursued by Jean Calvin? Calvinists are by essence protestants who have furthered their abiding to covenant theology thru Calvin.
As much as you seem to agree with calvinism... should I draw the conclusion that if you were a christian you would be a calvinist?
Rather than building your opinion on calvinism based on comments you read from other individuals.... have you considered studying on your own so you may not be influenced by other people's interpretation?
I am also interrested how you define " grace"... by its sole definition grace is not a benefit that requires earning it. Can you provide your own understanding of the notion of grace?

HelenM

So you are assuming the Bible doesn't have any contradictions in its meaning. How do you know that? Why do you assume it? Maybe the passages that would lead you to think that aren't meant to be taken literally...

Also, if two passages meanings seem to contradict one another how do you determine which one is literal, of the two - or whether neither is?

I don't see that it's as simple and clear as you seem to think.

Yes, but every reference to hell implies actual torment. It's not that the literal interpretation of the allegory introduces the idea of torment which contradicts other passages, giving a reason for not taking it literally.

Torment is implied in all the 'metaphors', if you will, of hell.

Anyway, earlier in the thread you said that to Christians hell would seem like torment. But the passages are not to Christians. They are intended to convey what hell will be like for those going there. Not what it would seem like compared to heaven. That's how I understand the texts to be meant, anyway.

Helen

BadBadBad

I don't know is an answer I can accept.

BadBadBad

Yeah, I want that fancy Bible decoder ring!

Ronin

Fanfiction ~

If the Christian God has an ear to listen...Helen will make him a better person.

...and talk of Hell ~ a laughable memory.

Sabine Grant

May I also add Bio being that the absence and presence of people in this forum and the frequency of their posts may have also to do with having to fulfill daily obligations such as work schedules , family priorities etc....... There are days I can be available to participate in this activity..... there might be several days where my focus remains on what I consider to be a priority in my life. Assuming that the absence of one participant or the other is caused by " having touched a nerve" is only an assumption.
Giving other people the benefit of the doubt by being realistic that most of us do not consider cyber activity to be the center of our lives is IMO a better approach.
Like or not, my time with my family prevails over neglicting them because I must respond within a certain time limit to a post. That also goes with my work schedule.
I do not place such unreasonable demands on other participants.....

BadBadBad

I separated protestants from Calvinists because I didn't know how to label the non-calvinists in the debate. How should I label them?

I don't agree with Calvanism. I pointed out that they too neglected the bulk of the Bible that preaches grace through faith. They did a better job than the non-calvanists, but still they had to do their gymnastics. They made a rational argument backed with biblical references, and given their base assumptions on God and the same rationalizations all christians make, they made a better case. The non-calvinists just spewed out the same "long winded" fluff that we're seeing here, and they just dissmissed the Calvinists off hand.

I'll never be a christian. What's wrong with learning from others? Would you be asking me that if I had learned from my mother and I was posting here as a christian? I formed my opinions about christianity when I was nine to twelve years old. My opinion was a rejection of christian viewpoints not an acceptance of athiest viewpoints. As an adult I have been driven to a hard atheist position by pestering christians not luring atheists. As I have read the Bible and educated myself on viewpoints opposing christianity, I have become even more convinced that christianity is bunk. Like I told LWF, the worst thing you can do as a christian is to try to convince anyone by asking them to read the Bible. The Bible and you as christians are your own worst enemies.

Grace:

A ficticious and meaningless concept created by ignorant men to empower themselves and manipulate others.

BioBeing

Sabine, Helen et al:

My appologies if my posts came off as an attempt to force you to drop everything and respond. I am not under the impression at all that it is your duty to do so. I was merely trying to give the thread a bump to try and stimulate a response, in case it had fallen off the radar. Again, sorry if I came off as impertinent.

BadBadBad

We've already been through this. That's just patently false. You know that's based entirely on the presupposition that God exists, and that the Bible is inerrant and without contradiction. No one has granted you those presuppositions in this discussion. At least you admit what your conclusions are based upon. If you want us to agree that your conclusions are rational and logical, then you'll need to apply some scientific method to the pre-suppositions. Does god exist, and is the Bible the inspired word of God are the main points of contention.

Come on now. We know you've got that secret Bible decoder ring. Give it up!


Maybe you're right!

You are the one begging the question.