MrDarwin

This discussion topic regularly rears its head in various forms on II. But two items that I've never encountered before:

Do you have any backup or documentation for this? It sounds almost too good to be true.

I don't have time to check the relevant passages, but if this is correct, it's absolutely wonderful.

Kosh

Using the johnV methodology, what you've missed is that in between all 9 and 14, the Egyptians took the Israelites livestocks (you know, slaves always have livestock of their own) and retrained them for Egyptian use. Also, the Egyptians could have gone out and traded with neighboring countries to replace their supplied. See? No contradiction if you add detail!

Or, it could all be myth made up by a bunch of ignorant bronze age goat herders (tm)....(who apparently couldn't proof read very well).

-DM-

Although Elohim is, in fact, a plural form of "God," it can (according to the authoritative sources that I have checked) mean "God" of all gods, most high god.

-Don-

-DM-

. . . from the <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml" target="_blank">Biblical Inconsistencies</a> section of <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/index.shtml" target="_blank">my material</a> in the Secular Web Library.

-Don-

Kosh

HawkingFan, please give references or links when you copy material directly, even if it's from the SecWeb library.

-DM-

* Also from the <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml" target="_blank">Biblical Inconsistencies</a> section of <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/index.shtml" target="_blank">my material</a>, although somewhat rearranged. In my material, it looks like this:

--

1KI 6:2, 2CH 3:3 Solomon's temple was only about ninety feet long by thirty feet wide, and yet
- 1KI 5:15-16 153,300 persons were employed to build it.
- 1KI 6:38 It took seven years to build.
- 1CH 22:14 13,100,000 lbs. of gold and 116,400,000 lbs. of silver were consumed in its construction.
- 1CH 23:4 24,000 supervisors and 6,000 officials and judges were employed to manage it.

--

Of course the Bible and most of these difficulties are in the public domain, having been identified by many different authors in the past. Still, in the case of any specific arrangement of the words, and when the source is known (and I'm not saying that it necessarily was in these two instances) it is nice to identify the source.

-Don-

-DM-

Right. This is the typical, ad hoc how-it-might-have-been kind of scenario that apologists come up with to "explain" any "apparent" biblical problem. What they need to keep in mind, however, is that it isn't sufficient to come up with these scenarios, instead they must demonstrate why it is that their "solution" should be taken over and above the plain and simple meaning of the words themselves given that one of the primary principles of Bible exegesis is that we are not to add to or take away from the plain meaning of the words unless there is some compelling reason to do so (context, etc.).

Most books of the Bible are the work of multiple authors, and of course most biblical authors likely had no idea that their work would someday be included in a Bible. The fact that Bible tells and retells many stories--with significant differences in detail--makes this seem quite obvious.

-Don-

Hawkingfan

Gotcha! Sorry, Don! You're the man!

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Pseudonymph

Actually...Judas himself did not buy the field. IIRC the Bible states that he returned the money to the temple authorities before hanging himself, and the money was then used to buy burial grounds.

This is all sketchy since it's been awhile since I've read through that part, but that's what I remember.

-DM-

My all-time "favorite" biblical inconsistencies are those having to do with the alleged Resurrection. Why? Because the truth of the Resurrection is crucial (pun intended) to the truth of Christianity. As Paul put it, "If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain." [1CO 15:14] Yet there are so many confliciting versions of the events surrounding the alleged Resurrection that the story has the earmarks of fiction.

-----------

1.) HEARSAY. What we know of the alleged Resurrection is based on the second-hand hearsay "testimony" of the Gospel authors, none of whom is thought to have been an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus, and who--at best--simply repeated what they themselves had heard from others. Further, there were no actual eyewitnesses to the actual Resurrection-in-progress; the alleged "eyewitnesses" were witnesses not to the Resurrection itself but rather to post-Resurrection appearances only.

2.) INCONSISTENCY. There are far too many inconsistencies in detail between what one biblical author and another tells us about the alleged Resurrection for me to be able take it seriously. In fact, there are so many inconsistencies that the story has the earmarks of fiction. A perfect and omnipotent god could have, should have, and likely would have seen to it that the authors he allegedly inspired got the details of something as important as the alleged Resurrection right. [See Selected Inconsistencies, below.]

3.) NONHISTORICAL. There is a noticeable lack of historical corroboration not only of the alleged Resurrection itself, but also of the "great earthquake" [MT 28.2] and the resurrection of the Saints [MT 27.50-54] which allegedly occurred in conjunction with the Resurrection.

4.) PHONINESS: The story in MT 28.11-15 has members of the guard (which had allegedly been placed at the tomb even though Matthew is the only Gospelist to mention such a guard) accepting a bribe to lie and say that they had fallen asleep--a lie which according to many historians would have been a certain death-sentence for those soldiers.

5.) IRRESPONSIBILITY. Given that all of Jerusalem was allegedly stirred by Jesus' so-called Triumphal Entry, it would be irresponsible of this god-man to appear post-Resurrection--not to all of Jerusalem and/or to those whose testimony would be most convincing (e.g., the Sanhedrin, Pontius Pilate, Josephus, other historians)--but rather to only a relatively small number of people, mostly friends and followers.

6.) CREDULTIY. The people of Jesus' time were highly superstitious, gullible, disposed to believe too readily, often not sufficiently discerning to be able to separate fact from fiction.

7.) MYTH. The myth of a son of a god who was born of a virgin, performed miracles, died, and was resurrected is not unique to Jesus. He wasn't the first and he wasn't the last for which some or all of these claims were made.

-----------

Selected INCONSISTENCIES follow:

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Was there or wasn't there a guard at the tomb?
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MT: yes
MK, LK, JN: no mention of a guard
[In fact, there could not have been a guard insofar as the women visitors were concerned in MK & LK given that they were planning to anoint the body with spices.]

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Exactly who were the first visitors to the tomb?
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MT: Mary Magdalene & the other Mary (2)
MK: both of the above, plus Salome (3)
LK: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (5 or more)
JN: Mary Magdalene (1)

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Exactly what time of day was it when the first visitor(s) arrived.
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MT: toward dawn
MK: after sunrise
LK: early dawn
JN: still dark

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Was there or wasn't there a stone still in place over the entrance to the tomb when the first visitor(s) arrived?
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MT: still in place, rolled away later
MK, LK & JN: already rolled or taken away

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Was there or wasn't there an earthquake?
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MT: yes
MK: LK, JN, none mentioned

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Was there or wasn't there an angel present? If so, how many?
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MT: 1 angel who rolled back the stone and then *sat* on it
MK: 1 young man *sitting* inside the tomb
LK: men (2 or more) suddenly appear *standing* inside the tomb
JN: 2 angels *sitting* inside the tomb

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What did the woman/women do immediately after finding (or being told) that the tomb (was) empty?
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MT: ran to tell the disciples
MK: said nothing to anyone
LK: told the eleven & all the rest
JN: the disciples returned home, Mary remained outside weeping

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Where was Jesus' first post-Resurrection appearance?
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MT: fairly near the tomb
MK: [not specified other than to Mary Magdalene, which presumably would have been fairly near the tomb]
LK: in the vicinity of Emmaus, seven miles from Jerusalem
JN: right at the tomb

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Did Jesus allow anyone to touch him prior to his Ascension?
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MT: he lets Mary Magdalene & the other Mary hold him by his feet
JN: on his first appearance to Mary, he forbids her to touch him because he has not yet ascended to his Father, yet he tells Thomas a week later to touch him even though he hasn't yet ascended

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Did those who first learned this story believe or disbelieve?
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MT: although some doubted, most believed because they followed the revealed instructions
MK & LK: the initial reaction was one of disbelief--all doubted

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Exactly what was the order of post-Resurrection appearances?
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MT: Mary Magdalene, the other Mary, the eleven
MK: Mary Magdalene, two others, the eleven
LK: two, Simon (Peter?), the eleven
JN: Mary Magdalene, the disciples without Thomas, the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven again
1CO: Cephas (Peter?), the twelve [really? one disciple was dead], 500+ brethren [120 in Acts], James, all the Apostles, Paul.


... and there's more.

-Don-