Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 08-12-2002, 06:25 AM

Is it just me, or are Amos's posts anything more than surreal nonsense?

brighid · 08-12-2002, 07:11 AM

How utterly and completely pathetic that women would be excommunicated for doing what � preaching the word of their God? Why � because one reason and one reason only � they have a vagina and Jesus had a penis. Yet, priests with penis� may insert them into little boys and girls and remain Vicars of Christ, presenting His Body and Blood to the faithful and performing other sacraments of their God � and even after immoral and criminal wrong doing has been determined to be credible and the priest found guilty, he will be forgiven, perhaps defrocked, keep his pension but he will NEVER be ex-communicated.

And yet, people will still wonder why atheists simply are unable to find the logic, truth, compassion or good in a Church, led by the Holy Spirit, possessed of the One and Only Truth, illuminated by the Light of their God � is nothing more then a human concoction. Christ wasn�t a woman � too damn bad he wasn�t. Perhaps the Church and Christendom wouldn�t be such a horrendously immoral, unjust, bastion of inequity.

Something for the Christian to contemplate:

Ain�t I A Woman? Sojourner Truth �

Several ministers attended the second day of the Woman's Rights Convention, and were not shy in voicing their opinion of man's superiority over women. One claimed "superior intellect", one spoke of the "manhood of Christ," and still another referred to the "sin of our first mother."

Suddenly, Sojourner Truth rose from her seat in the corner of the church.

"For God's sake, Mrs.Gage, don't let her speak!" half a dozen women whispered loudly, fearing that their cause would be mixed up with Abolition.
Sojourner walked to the podium and slowly took off her sunbonnet. Her six-foot frame towered over the audience. She began to speak in her deep, resonant voice: "Well, children, where there is so much racket, there must be something out of kilter, I think between the Negroes of the South and the women of the North - all talking about rights - the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this talking about?"
Sojourner pointed to one of the ministers. "That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody helps me any best place. And ain't I a woman?"

Sojourner raised herself to her full
height. "Look at me! Look at my arm." She bared her right arm and flexed her powerful muscles. "I have plowed, I have planted and I have gathered into barns. And no man could head me. And ain't I a woman?"

"I could work as much, and eat as much as man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne children and seen most of them sold into slavery, and when I cried out with a mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me. And ain't I a woman?"

The women in the audience began to cheer wildly.
She pointed to another minister. "He talks about this thing in the head. What's that they call it?"

"Intellect," whispered a woman nearby.

"That's it, honey. What's intellect got to do with women's rights or black folks' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half-measure full?"

"That little man in black there! He says women can't have as much rights as men. �Cause Christ wasn't a woman. She stood with outstretched arms and eyes of fire. "Where did your Christ come from?"

"Where did your Christ come from?", she thundered again. "From God and a Woman! Man had nothing to do with him!"

The entire church now roared with deafening applause.

"If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right-side up again. And now that they are asking to do it the men better let them."

Brighid

08-12-2002, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by schu:The question comes to my mind; "Why the hell would any of them or anyone else want to be a part of an organization like that?".

I suppose it's something to do with being brought up catholic. I know some wonderful catholics and I always find it hard to understand why they carry on campaigning within the church rather than hurrying out of it. I have never yet heard any coherent reason from a theist about why they believe what they do. It's usually a lot of waffle.

Lady MacDuff · 08-12-2002, 09:42 AM

Don't know much about catholocism; only that men are priests and women are nuns. My question: The priests are in charge of mass. What are the nuns in charge of? What is the role of nuns in the catholic church? I know they teach in schools and do charity work. What if a nun held mass? Could one of them do that? Is that in their realm?

Just wondering

simian · 08-12-2002, 10:03 AM

mass - no (no ifs ands or buts)

communion, baptism, other sacriments - yes, but only in dire emergencies (something like last rites for a dying person, if no priest is available) - generally about the same as a lay person

I was raised Catholic - I am not sure what the role of nuns would be. There is nothing "special" they do. Anybody have insights on what the role might be?

Simian

ManM · 08-12-2002, 11:40 AM

There is a very good reason why only men are priests. The priests are supposed to be symbolic representations of Jesus Christ. I would find it quite inappropriate for Sean Connery to play the part of Marilyn Monroe in a movie. Likewise, it is also inappropriate for a woman to represent Jesus Christ.

Oxidizing Material · 08-12-2002, 12:05 PM

That's not a "good reason". That's an excuse.

daemon · 08-12-2002, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by simian:
<strong>I also suspect that they will eventually allow married priests.</strong>

They already do. It's not well known, and the Church certainly doesn't like it publicized, but due to societal tradition in many places in Africa, priests are married; bishops may have multiple wives!

brighid · 08-12-2002, 12:22 PM

That is a terrible excuse. So � what represents Christ � a penis? Or is it supposed to be honesty, compassion, mercy, humility, non-judgment, caring, love � and all the other alleged attributes of this savior of yours? It is entirely sad, and will hopefully lead to the eventual downfall of the Church � this oppression of women and failing to realize that one gender is not more possessed of qualities that make one �Christlike� and it should be the heart of the person, not their genitalia that defines ones� worth and character. Truly pathetic! And if a priest is nothing more then an actor (and most poor at that) then mass is nothing more then a theatrical performance and if your God is so weak that he cannot manifest Himself in the body of a woman then it only further speaks to the weakness of your God.

Brighid

S.D.Jim · 08-12-2002, 12:46 PM

Brighid: Your post concerning Sojourner Truth is outstanding. Perhaps we should post this story instead of the ten commandments in all religious schools, on second thought why restrict it to just religious schools.

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08-12-2002, 06:25 AM	#11
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Is it just me, or are Amos's posts anything more than surreal nonsense?

08-12-2002, 07:11 AM	#12
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	How utterly and completely pathetic that women would be excommunicated for doing what � preaching the word of their God? Why � because one reason and one reason only � they have a vagina and Jesus had a penis. Yet, priests with penis� may insert them into little boys and girls and remain Vicars of Christ, presenting His Body and Blood to the faithful and performing other sacraments of their God � and even after immoral and criminal wrong doing has been determined to be credible and the priest found guilty, he will be forgiven, perhaps defrocked, keep his pension but he will NEVER be ex-communicated. And yet, people will still wonder why atheists simply are unable to find the logic, truth, compassion or good in a Church, led by the Holy Spirit, possessed of the One and Only Truth, illuminated by the Light of their God � is nothing more then a human concoction. Christ wasn�t a woman � too damn bad he wasn�t. Perhaps the Church and Christendom wouldn�t be such a horrendously immoral, unjust, bastion of inequity. Something for the Christian to contemplate: Ain�t I A Woman? Sojourner Truth � Several ministers attended the second day of the Woman's Rights Convention, and were not shy in voicing their opinion of man's superiority over women. One claimed "superior intellect", one spoke of the "manhood of Christ," and still another referred to the "sin of our first mother." Suddenly, Sojourner Truth rose from her seat in the corner of the church. "For God's sake, Mrs.Gage, don't let her speak!" half a dozen women whispered loudly, fearing that their cause would be mixed up with Abolition. Sojourner walked to the podium and slowly took off her sunbonnet. Her six-foot frame towered over the audience. She began to speak in her deep, resonant voice: "Well, children, where there is so much racket, there must be something out of kilter, I think between the Negroes of the South and the women of the North - all talking about rights - the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this talking about?" Sojourner pointed to one of the ministers. "That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody helps me any best place. And ain't I a woman?" Sojourner raised herself to her full height. "Look at me! Look at my arm." She bared her right arm and flexed her powerful muscles. "I have plowed, I have planted and I have gathered into barns. And no man could head me. And ain't I a woman?" "I could work as much, and eat as much as man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne children and seen most of them sold into slavery, and when I cried out with a mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me. And ain't I a woman?" The women in the audience began to cheer wildly. She pointed to another minister. "He talks about this thing in the head. What's that they call it?" "Intellect," whispered a woman nearby. "That's it, honey. What's intellect got to do with women's rights or black folks' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half-measure full?" "That little man in black there! He says women can't have as much rights as men. �Cause Christ wasn't a woman. She stood with outstretched arms and eyes of fire. "Where did your Christ come from?" "Where did your Christ come from?", she thundered again. "From God and a Woman! Man had nothing to do with him!" The entire church now roared with deafening applause. "If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right-side up again. And now that they are asking to do it the men better let them." Brighid

08-12-2002, 09:42 AM	#14
Lady MacDuff Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 180	Don't know much about catholocism; only that men are priests and women are nuns. My question: The priests are in charge of mass. What are the nuns in charge of? What is the role of nuns in the catholic church? I know they teach in schools and do charity work. What if a nun held mass? Could one of them do that? Is that in their realm? Just wondering

08-12-2002, 10:03 AM	#15
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	mass - no (no ifs ands or buts) communion, baptism, other sacriments - yes, but only in dire emergencies (something like last rites for a dying person, if no priest is available) - generally about the same as a lay person I was raised Catholic - I am not sure what the role of nuns would be. There is nothing "special" they do. Anybody have insights on what the role might be? Simian

08-12-2002, 11:40 AM	#16
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	There is a very good reason why only men are priests. The priests are supposed to be symbolic representations of Jesus Christ. I would find it quite inappropriate for Sean Connery to play the part of Marilyn Monroe in a movie. Likewise, it is also inappropriate for a woman to represent Jesus Christ.

08-12-2002, 12:05 PM	#17
Oxidizing Material Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 2,069	That's not a "good reason". That's an excuse.

08-12-2002, 12:22 PM	#19
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	That is a terrible excuse. So � what represents Christ � a penis? Or is it supposed to be honesty, compassion, mercy, humility, non-judgment, caring, love � and all the other alleged attributes of this savior of yours? It is entirely sad, and will hopefully lead to the eventual downfall of the Church � this oppression of women and failing to realize that one gender is not more possessed of qualities that make one �Christlike� and it should be the heart of the person, not their genitalia that defines ones� worth and character. Truly pathetic! And if a priest is nothing more then an actor (and most poor at that) then mass is nothing more then a theatrical performance and if your God is so weak that he cannot manifest Himself in the body of a woman then it only further speaks to the weakness of your God. Brighid

08-12-2002, 12:46 PM	#20
S.D.Jim Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 12	Brighid: Your post concerning Sojourner Truth is outstanding. Perhaps we should post this story instead of the ten commandments in all religious schools, on second thought why restrict it to just religious schools.

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