Pop_Quiz

I think Paul Bunyan was a real lumberjack. And the Lone Ranger actually meted out justice in the early days of the Wild West.
And Johnny Appleseed was a real apple-planting fool. Okay, so he was actually named John Chapman and did plant apples throughout the Midwest.

Then maybe Jesus was actually a carpenter named Jesse who had a knack for savy self-promotion. It's just a shame his advertising didn't extend beyond the NT into contemporary writing from ANYBODY else, especially the Romans (who found it difficult to turn down just about any religion at least on a trial basis), the very executioners of Christendom's most holy figure. Either Jesse, err, Jesus, never existed or just didn't create enough of a ripple in the fabric of daily Roman life to matter. That's the last thing a martyr needs: to be overlooked by one's own killers.

And since there's a 40-foot statue of Paul Bunyan in Bangor, Maine, can you disprove HE never lived? All it apparently takes to gain eternal infamy and true-life status is long-term folklore and a statue or two.

Ted Hoffman

I think this George Washington analogy is perfect in illustrating that the Jesus of the Gospels DID NOT exist.

DMB

There's a big statue of Wilhelm Tell with his son and his crossbow in Altdorf, but it's highly improbable that he really existed, or, that if he was a real person, he ever shot the apple on his son's head, etc.

It's still a popular myth in Switzerland, although the Swiss have a different foundation myth that they take more seriously (see <a href="http://www.familienherberge.ch/ruetli_english.htm" target="_blank">this</a> for example).

Amos

The "George Washington who chopped down the cherry tree" may have existed in the story but in reality George Washington did not exist because only the generic man who is described by the attribute existed. Of course, George Washington has other attributes and that is why we can associate him with the cherry tree story.

Amos

But regardless if the story is true or not, the man here called George Washington is associated with the story and we know which person we are talking about because of this same man it was said that he was a president of the USA.

The difference between these two is that one is true and one is not true but both are descriptive attributes of a man, and this man existed as man but not in the image (persona) of this man wherein he recognize him as individual.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

galiel

Does Steven Carr exist?

Rusting Car Bumper

This is a good question. Answering it gives us a good lesson in how history is done.

One lesson:
The reason we can say that George Washington existed is that we have multiple independent lines of evidences that he existed. These include not only artifacts which he was claimed to have owned but witnesses to his events. Multiples witnesses to his events which tell the same story. Writings which are alleged to been of his own hand. Reponses to those writings which were written in his time. and so on. Essentially there is a giant web of evience which points to him and then there is a giant web of evidence which points to the evidence and so on.

No such web exists for Jesus. You have, at best, a few nodes in the web and no multiple lines of confirming evidence for his existence.

DC

Amos

No he doesn't, but the man we call steve Carr does exist.

Sojourner553

You miss the real issue:

And the issue is (drum roll): WAS GEORGE WASHINGTON OR EVEN STEVE CARR ...

a member of a divine trinity godship?!

Belief in "divinity" should require even MORE evidence than "mere historicity" before it is accepted as true??? Or do you disagree...


By the way: I hold Jesus probably was a real historical person -- just the STORIES regarding his divinty were the myth... Therefore your lead-in example of George and the cherry tree story was a PERFECT analogy of this Steve!

Sojourner

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Amos

Yes I disagree and you seem to have everything backwards.

Belief in divinity requires no historic evidence at all, and, in fact, our search for historic evidence is misleading because Jesus never did exist except in the myth and it is precisely that he existed in the myth that Jesus was real and therefore rightfully could say "I am the way." George Washington and Stephen Carr are not real but only the man called George Washington or Stephen Carr is real.

In my view myth is real and as we described our self by our name we are representations of our ego identity. In Christendom, as believers, we seek to find reality in Jesus and must subsequently crucify our own Jesus to become Christ-ian.

On the other hand, if you call faith more than "mere historicity" you are correct. My objection here is that faith is much easier and therefore much less than "mere historicity" because faith only requires that we are honest with our self.

The STORIES about Jesus were true, but true only as myth and therefore real but not real as in historically real and therefore traceable in history.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>