Starboy

Rhea, I guess I am not devious enough. It never occured to me that Muffin might be the victum of another fundies intolerance. If that were so it would be too rich indeed.

Starboy

The Other Michael

It is curious that your friend would ask you about your religious beliefs.

If I see someone acting nice, I just figure they're a nice person, and it never occurs to me to see if there is some supernatural reason for their behavior. It seems like there are a fair old number of nice folks out there, and they seem to come from many different religious beliefs, or, surprisingly enough, no belief at all.

But I'm no doubt mistaken about all the non-Christians actually being nice people.

cheers,
Michael

Rhea

You know, that's a good point. Because I am a nauseatingly happy person, I have people ask me all the time (really, quite a lot), "what makes you so happy?"

It has NEVER occurred to me that they were interested in my religion. I have always replied, "Life's good. Can't help it."

Perhaps what they're REALLY wanting to hear is, "I'm an atheist, I believe that happiness comes from within..." and launch into a dissertation about what makes me smile everyday.

But you know, I really don't think that's what they want to hear. I could be wrong. I have a lot of practice at being wrong. I'll ask the next one. Maybe it's all Christians looking for a better life and I've been holding out on them all this time! What a selfish jerk I am!

ComestibleVenom

Yea, the bible doesn't tell us to HATE homosexuals. It tells us to KILL them.

Spirit of God's faggot burning love remember?

*(Note to mods: You are obliges to understand me to be speaking of a bundle of sticks. Everyone else is free to take it as they will)*

Rational BAC

Back to the praying in class thing-----

I don't get it either.

I have prayed before every important test in my life. Even during the time I was an agnostic, I prayed---(figuring what the hell--can't hurt, might help).

I think, assuming you were praying quietly to yourself (and you could cross your hands too)--------that teacher was WAY out of line. You should have called her on it. Nobody, either theist or non-theist, should be a wussie.

Sometimes you just have to stand up for what is right.

Radorth

Though at least one serious argument was recently made in the Supreme Court that kids could not pray together on public property, and the ACLU was nowhere to be found.

I'm sure you are vociferously against such specious cases, however.

Rad

Starboy

Radorth, as long as it is not a publicly sponsored event where the public attends Christians can pray all they like. The first amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

So our government cannot pass laws that promote or discourage a religion. It must remain neutral. Conducting public school classes is a publicly sponsored event mandated by law. The school as a matter of law cannot mandate prayer or religious observance nor prohibit its exercise. But I would hope that in the interest of promoting peace and harmony in a diverse population that Christians would understand that no one is saying you can't believe or pray but instead please have the good sense to keep it to yourselves. Everybody has heard the good news by now many, many, many times. Your just pissing people off!

Starboy

Radorth

Which is PRECISELY what they were doing in that case. In your usual rush to preach your tedious separation gospel, and quote a Constitution we have all memorized, you failed to even hear what I was saying.

Rad

Starboy

Radorth, I knew you were baiting me, so I gave you what you wanted. Are you happy now? Besides if you are for separation of church and state then this should be a non-issue. I don't think that even the most rabid Christian could argue that there are not ample opportunities for the religious to express their faith without the use of public school property.

Starboy

Sabine Grant

I think the comment was directed to the reality that prayer needs no audience. I can pray in my thoughts with as much intensity as if I were praying outwardly with a group of christians. There is noone who can control my thoughts.
The right to assembly for prayer in the public school specifies that it must be done at times which do not interfere with government paid time ( that applies to teachers mostly). The religious rights of students are not limited as long as they do not interfere with class time . A muslim student can at lunch time choose to retire in a private location , lay his little carpet on the ground and pray to Allah.

Religious themes presented by students have to be within curriculum content. For academic purpose not for the purpose of promoting their religious beliefs.

Most schools offer alternative activities to religious students who wish to be excused from in class activities which are offensive to their beliefs. The same for excused absence status for religious students who wish to uphold particular holidays.

I personaly think that religious students have the freedom and protection of retaining their religious individuality in the public school system in America. I can sympathize with non theist students who had to comply with " one nation under God". Those who chose to not stand for the Pledge or left out from their recitation the " nation under God" often have been looked upon negatively by their peers or teachers. Unfortunatly because of the lack of respect of their personal choice, the matter landed in a court of law.

I do know that not standing for the Pledge in any circumstance or environment can result in negative reactions from the rest of the audience. As a legal Alien in the US for 20 years, I find it unappropriate for me to pledge allegiance to a flag which represents a citizenship which is not mine. However I had to compromise with standing during the Pledge as a sign of respect to others without uttering a word. ( I still get dirty looks though!).
I understand fully how inappropriate for a non theist it is to recitate a pledge which does not reflect his personal conviction.
If religious students benefit of the protection to retain their religious identity while in school, non religious students should have the equal protection to not be coherced in partaking in any religious theme. However, if both sides learned to respect each individuality, us christians by not insisting that an audience has to put up with our prayer practices, non theists by considering a student initiated expose on creation in a science class as part of general academic education ( plus it teaches kids to develop critical thinking if followed by a debate), I think we will avoid involving the ACLJ or the ACLU.

Having 3 children of ages 11, 15 and 18 I can attest that any time my kids wanted to pray privatly in accordance with constitutional guidelines, noone ever demanded they do not. Other religious rights of the students matters which occured were always solved between myself and the teacher or Principal.

From Christ's perspective, it makes no doubt that He encouraged prayer to be private in public places. He was highly critical of the show off attitudes of the Pharisees standing in the streets for all to be aware of their " rigtheousness".