Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Fred Flintstonensis · 10-08-2002, 03:57 PM

I am email debating with a guy who is apparently very steeped in Pascal's apologetic methodology. He is convinced that only Christianity has certain 'explanatory powers'. For instance, he says that "only Christianity explains both the greatness and the wretchedness of man". This is, of course, silly. He says that evolution can explain man's wretchedness because man is just an animal, 'New Age' religions explain man's greatness by saying that all men are gods.

This line of thinking is only effective in that it is so off the wall that it takes the non-christian opponent by surprise. It is just some goofy platitude disguised as an erudite observation.

However, despite all of this, I would LOVE to give him a few examples of the falsity of this argument. It seems to me that Zorostrianism explains the greatness/wretchedness thing quite well, better than Christianity IMO. Any others? How about Scientology? Hinduism? The Force? Any takers?

Mageth · 10-08-2002, 04:10 PM

Well, I don't buy into the whole greatness/wretchedness thing in the first place, so I don't think either needs an explanation.

hinduwoman · 10-08-2002, 05:07 PM

In Hinduism, humans are called "children of immortality" --- so you have greatness.

But humans have a tendency only to think of their own egos and worldy prosperity --- so you have karma and wretchedness.

But what exactly does your debator mean by "greatness and wretchedness" according to Christianity?

Fred Flintstonensis · 10-08-2002, 05:18 PM

Sorry, I should have clarified a little better.

He holds Hitler as the ultimate example of the wretchedness of man and Mother Theresa as an example of the greatness of man. He thinks that only christianity can explain how two completely different types of people can be.

he says that the explanation is that we were born into sin (which explains the Hitlers) and through Jesus we can be redeemed (which explains the Mother Theresas).

Now I can handle his bringing evolution into this but I wanted to throw some other religions out there which also 'explain' this disparity. I immediately thought of Zorostrianism, because I use to work with a guy who was an Iranian Zoroastrian.

gsx1138 · 10-09-2002, 09:46 AM

Huh? That makes little to no sense. I'm Wiccan, we believe people make good choices and bad choices. Hitler= bad choice. Mother Theresa= good choice. I guess that makes Wiccan the true religion

To me the belief in original sin is just a form of self loathing. This guy sounds off his rocker but then so do most christian apologists.

kalamasutta · 10-09-2002, 10:09 AM

Dear Fred.........

basically, I'd agree with Mageth........dividing the world up into two camps seems ridiculous. The "wretched" and the "great"!!!! I remember a story of a young child being asked what colour she would be if the good were coloured "red" and the bad "blue". After a bit of thought, she decided she would be "streaky". Even your friends (?) example of the "greatness of man(!!!!????)" , Mother Teresa, said herself that one of the main reasons that she ended up on the streets of Calcutta to serve the homeless was because she "recognised the Hitler within me" at an early age.

And in my opinion the biographer of Freud, Lou Andreas-Salome was pointing in the right direction when he said...."When confronted by a human being who impresses us as truly great, should we not be moved rather than chilled by the knowledge that he might have attained his greatness only through his frailties?"

Anyway, you seem to be in the right area with Zoroastrianism, with its strong dualism of "good" and "evil"...........the twins Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu....the good and evil spirits.....and its teaching that all have the capacity to choose who they shall follow.

Yet it seems to me there are a million reasons why, if we want to make such judgements, some would appear to us as good and some as wretched - as far as "Christianity being the only one with such explanatory powers"......I really can't see the guys argument at all.

monkey mind · 10-09-2002, 10:57 AM

I also agree, I think the dualism of Christianity is what weakens it. A lot of Christians are so caught up in dualism they entrap themselves in what they deem "good", and cannot deal with the rest of the world which they deem "wretched." They build a little fantasy around themselves which is not a realistic view of the world.

Please note, I'm not saying all Christians, but I have met quie a few who seem to fall into this category, which makes me believe that Christianity is easily interpretted in this way. I think that is a drawback of the teaching.

In Buddhism it is taught that all sentient beings have Buddha nature, and it is exactly the same in all whether they be Gods or animals or hell beings or even humans. It's just that this inherent nature is covered over by varying levels of ignorance. Even the "heavenly' beings are considered to have ignorance which covers over their Buddha nature. I think that's sort of an explanation of the "good" and the "wretched" in all of nature, not simply humans. Which is another point. We're simply a part of nature, not above it, in my opinion.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

monkey mind · 10-09-2002, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gsx1138:
Huh? That makes little to no sense. I'm Wiccan, we believe people make good choices and bad choices. Hitler= bad choice. Mother Theresa= good choice. I guess that makes Wiccan the true religion

To me the belief in original sin is just a form of self loathing. This guy sounds off his rocker but then so do most christian apologists.

I also didn't agree with the teaching of "original sin" until I read this explanation, and I understood it a little better.

Because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we learnt how to distinguish between good and evil. Because now we perpetually distinguish between good and evil we are always clinging to what we deem good, trying to teach everyone else what we believe is the good, and we run from what we deem evil. Thus we make goodness into a prison, a little fantasy for ourselves. We are perpetually running from the evil and clinging to the good. This is what our original (or perpetual) sin is. If we didn't make this discrimination, we could just be good with judging. Because we perpetually judge, we perpetually sin.

Anyway, after having it explained that way, I appreciated the teaching more. Maybe you've heard that before, I don't know.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

Dr. Jagan Mohan · 10-09-2002, 04:28 PM

Monkey Mind: I think the dualism of Christianity is what weakens it..
Succintly put, can't help agreeing.

Monkey Mind: In Buddhism it is taught that all sentient beings have Buddha nature
In Hinduism <a href="http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/dws/M06.html" target="_blank">The essence of our soul, which was never created, is immanent love and transcendent reality and is identical and eternally one with God. At the core of our being, we already are That--'perfect at this very moment'.</a>

The problem of Sin and the origin of Sin, its compactibility with God as the originator of Sin in Christianity is its greatest burden, IMHO.. try querying him about where this duality of good and bad arises from and why God the Father created it in the very first place, if at all He is the originator... beware of the explaination of Man choosing to disobey vis a vis Adam and the Apple, necessity of Sin for goodness to exist, test of faith, etc...

Quote: This line of thinking is only effective in that it is so off the wall that it takes the non-christian opponent by surprise
You bet!

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]

Dr. Jagan Mohan · 10-09-2002, 04:37 PM

Monkey Mind, sorry, but did not quite get it,
So the Original sin is that we (as humanity) somewhere in the past 'learnt how to distinguish between good and evil' and therefore we are perpetually judging? and consequently sinning ever since and forver?

so in short, Ignorance is bliss?
--------------
Quote: He holds Hitler as the ultimate example of the wretchedness of man
How can he be sure this did not happen, that Hitler, just before he sucided, made his peace with God the Father, accepted Jesus Christ as his sole Savior and Confessed his sins to a Catholic priest and got baptised in the name of the Holy Spirit is now in Heaven?

Acc. to Christianity, then Hitler's wretchedness is a temporary state which can readily be modified by just a simple action: faith and affirmation that Jesus Christ is the Savior.

Even if we go by Christianity, Man -read Adam/eve were created perfect, but sinned and that their descendents inherited their sin and this sin is temporary and will be washed away by God's Son, Jesus Christ's Blood on the Cross.. all you need to do is to believe in Him and accept Him as the savior, Son of God, One of Trinity,... and 'puff' you are saved... and become a denizen of Heaven.

Comparatively even Hinduism/Buddhism has similiar stands

only radically different... In very Brief:
The Essense of Man is perfect. In Hinduism, Man and other living objects are a 'field for actions' and impermanent, while the Soul or Atman is the only reality and permanent entity. The Atman is pure, untainted with the Tri-Gunas, but under illusion and ignorance of its real nature, is caught in a web of Karma (with egoism/attachment to material world/sense gratification) and undergoes the cycle of birth/life/death which is Samsara... Buddhism is ditto, except, take away the Soul.
Withdrawal and Control of Senses= Dissolution of all Karmas, both Good and Bad= eradication of egoism which is selflessness, (+in some Hindu Philosophical schools, devotion and grace of God), you reach the other shore... Moksha or Nirvana.

I am starting to believe that sometimes, Christianity can be 'made' compactable to eastern thought... sorry for going beyond the purpose/aim of this thread..

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]

10-08-2002, 03:57 PM	#1
Fred Flintstonensis Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Orla Vista, FL Posts: 34	The greatness and wretchedness of man I am email debating with a guy who is apparently very steeped in Pascal's apologetic methodology. He is convinced that only Christianity has certain 'explanatory powers'. For instance, he says that "only Christianity explains both the greatness and the wretchedness of man". This is, of course, silly. He says that evolution can explain man's wretchedness because man is just an animal, 'New Age' religions explain man's greatness by saying that all men are gods. This line of thinking is only effective in that it is so off the wall that it takes the non-christian opponent by surprise. It is just some goofy platitude disguised as an erudite observation. However, despite all of this, I would LOVE to give him a few examples of the falsity of this argument. It seems to me that Zorostrianism explains the greatness/wretchedness thing quite well, better than Christianity IMO. Any others? How about Scientology? Hinduism? The Force? Any takers?

10-09-2002, 10:57 AM	#7
monkey mind Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: canada Posts: 140	I also agree, I think the dualism of Christianity is what weakens it. A lot of Christians are so caught up in dualism they entrap themselves in what they deem "good", and cannot deal with the rest of the world which they deem "wretched." They build a little fantasy around themselves which is not a realistic view of the world. Please note, I'm not saying all Christians, but I have met quie a few who seem to fall into this category, which makes me believe that Christianity is easily interpretted in this way. I think that is a drawback of the teaching. In Buddhism it is taught that all sentient beings have Buddha nature, and it is exactly the same in all whether they be Gods or animals or hell beings or even humans. It's just that this inherent nature is covered over by varying levels of ignorance. Even the "heavenly' beings are considered to have ignorance which covers over their Buddha nature. I think that's sort of an explanation of the "good" and the "wretched" in all of nature, not simply humans. Which is another point. We're simply a part of nature, not above it, in my opinion. [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]</p>

10-09-2002, 04:28 PM	#9
Dr. Jagan Mohan Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Presently on the 'move' :) Posts: 98	Monkey Mind: I think the dualism of Christianity is what weakens it.. Succintly put, can't help agreeing. Monkey Mind: In Buddhism it is taught that all sentient beings have Buddha nature In Hinduism <a href="http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/dws/M06.html" target="_blank">The essence of our soul, which was never created, is immanent love and transcendent reality and is identical and eternally one with God. At the core of our being, we already are That--'perfect at this very moment'.</a> The problem of Sin and the origin of Sin, its compactibility with God as the originator of Sin in Christianity is its greatest burden, IMHO.. try querying him about where this duality of good and bad arises from and why God the Father created it in the very first place, if at all He is the originator... beware of the explaination of Man choosing to disobey vis a vis Adam and the Apple, necessity of Sin for goodness to exist, test of faith, etc... Quote: This line of thinking is only effective in that it is so off the wall that it takes the non-christian opponent by surprise You bet! [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]</p>

10-09-2002, 04:37 PM	#10
Dr. Jagan Mohan Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Presently on the 'move' :) Posts: 98	Monkey Mind, sorry, but did not quite get it, So the Original sin is that we (as humanity) somewhere in the past 'learnt how to distinguish between good and evil' and therefore we are perpetually judging? and consequently sinning ever since and forver? so in short, Ignorance is bliss? -------------- Quote: He holds Hitler as the ultimate example of the wretchedness of man How can he be sure this did not happen, that Hitler, just before he sucided, made his peace with God the Father, accepted Jesus Christ as his sole Savior and Confessed his sins to a Catholic priest and got baptised in the name of the Holy Spirit is now in Heaven? Acc. to Christianity, then Hitler's wretchedness is a temporary state which can readily be modified by just a simple action: faith and affirmation that Jesus Christ is the Savior. Even if we go by Christianity, Man -read Adam/eve were created perfect, but sinned and that their descendents inherited their sin and this sin is temporary and will be washed away by God's Son, Jesus Christ's Blood on the Cross.. all you need to do is to believe in Him and accept Him as the savior, Son of God, One of Trinity,... and 'puff' you are saved... and become a denizen of Heaven. Comparatively even Hinduism/Buddhism has similiar stands only radically different... In very Brief: The Essense of Man is perfect. In Hinduism, Man and other living objects are a 'field for actions' and impermanent, while the Soul or Atman is the only reality and permanent entity. The Atman is pure, untainted with the Tri-Gunas, but under illusion and ignorance of its real nature, is caught in a web of Karma (with egoism/attachment to material world/sense gratification) and undergoes the cycle of birth/life/death which is Samsara... Buddhism is ditto, except, take away the Soul. Withdrawal and Control of Senses= Dissolution of all Karmas, both Good and Bad= eradication of egoism which is selflessness, (+in some Hindu Philosophical schools, devotion and grace of God), you reach the other shore... Moksha or Nirvana. I am starting to believe that sometimes, Christianity can be 'made' compactable to eastern thought... sorry for going beyond the purpose/aim of this thread.. [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]</p>

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10-08-2002, 04:10 PM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Well, I don't buy into the whole greatness/wretchedness thing in the first place, so I don't think either needs an explanation.

10-08-2002, 05:07 PM	#3
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	In Hinduism, humans are called "children of immortality" --- so you have greatness. But humans have a tendency only to think of their own egos and worldy prosperity --- so you have karma and wretchedness. But what exactly does your debator mean by "greatness and wretchedness" according to Christianity?

10-08-2002, 05:18 PM	#4
Fred Flintstonensis Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Orla Vista, FL Posts: 34	Sorry, I should have clarified a little better. He holds Hitler as the ultimate example of the wretchedness of man and Mother Theresa as an example of the greatness of man. He thinks that only christianity can explain how two completely different types of people can be. he says that the explanation is that we were born into sin (which explains the Hitlers) and through Jesus we can be redeemed (which explains the Mother Theresas). Now I can handle his bringing evolution into this but I wanted to throw some other religions out there which also 'explain' this disparity. I immediately thought of Zorostrianism, because I use to work with a guy who was an Iranian Zoroastrian.

10-09-2002, 09:46 AM	#5
gsx1138 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bremerton, Washington Posts: 379	Huh? That makes little to no sense. I'm Wiccan, we believe people make good choices and bad choices. Hitler= bad choice. Mother Theresa= good choice. I guess that makes Wiccan the true religion To me the belief in original sin is just a form of self loathing. This guy sounds off his rocker but then so do most christian apologists.

10-09-2002, 10:09 AM	#6
kalamasutta Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: England Posts: 34	Dear Fred......... basically, I'd agree with Mageth........dividing the world up into two camps seems ridiculous. The "wretched" and the "great"!!!! I remember a story of a young child being asked what colour she would be if the good were coloured "red" and the bad "blue". After a bit of thought, she decided she would be "streaky". Even your friends (?) example of the "greatness of man(!!!!????)" , Mother Teresa, said herself that one of the main reasons that she ended up on the streets of Calcutta to serve the homeless was because she "recognised the Hitler within me" at an early age. And in my opinion the biographer of Freud, Lou Andreas-Salome was pointing in the right direction when he said...."When confronted by a human being who impresses us as truly great, should we not be moved rather than chilled by the knowledge that he might have attained his greatness only through his frailties?" Anyway, you seem to be in the right area with Zoroastrianism, with its strong dualism of "good" and "evil"...........the twins Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu....the good and evil spirits.....and its teaching that all have the capacity to choose who they shall follow. Yet it seems to me there are a million reasons why, if we want to make such judgements, some would appear to us as good and some as wretched - as far as "Christianity being the only one with such explanatory powers"......I really can't see the guys argument at all.

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