seebs

Not interested in sex might be relevant - but is also something you could discuss without having to have sex.

I can understand that there are people to whom these things are very important. However, that doesn't make me think they are good or valid considerations; many people have strange or ill-considered priorities.

The majority of divorces do not involve physical abuse. In your situation, sure, I'd tend to agree. Your situation is not, however, a *typical* one for divorce. So, we can agree that in your case, divorce was the best option your mom had, but that doesn't mean that people who are experiencing ennui should immediately divorce and let the kids cope.

alek0

Why not? And I have asked you two very specific questions on whether you and your wife would have been as happy in two situations described.

I don't know anyone who divorced immediately just for experiencing ennui and I don't think it is the general case. It is far more likely that most people divorce for serious problems they have experienced, and it is extremely arrogant to trivialize the things they've been through.

I would again like to ask you how can you, based only on your personal experience, make such broad and general claims that all problems can be solved and that people just aren't commited enough or tried hard enough to solve them?

Also, you said before:
If you have some hang-ups about sex and it is too deep in your psyche that sex is something special not to say sacred thing which should happen only in marriage, why do you think it is the same for everyone else? Guess what - if you don't consider sex as something special and sacred and reserved for marriage only, you have no problems with experimentation. Same as if you don't treat genitalia any different than any other body part, you don't feel uncomfortable on nude beach.

seebs

Which I have chosen not to answer. Either I don't know, or it would be pretty damn rude to talk about it; same goes for any sexual compatibility things I may or may not have encountered with other people. Not all my stories are mine to tell.

Of the people I know personally who have gotten divorced, it's been ennui, ennui, and ennui. Every time.

I can't. I can merely say that most of the problems I've seen people give up on are problems I've seen other people solve.

For the same reason that, experiencing pain when I am attacked, I conclude that it's the same for everyone else; because my best guess is that all humans are more similar than different.

Note the careful biasing of your language; "hang-ups". What gives you the authority to judge? If I don't have it, then why do you?

I see. While my personal experience isn't enough to judge with absolute certainty everything that could ever be, yours is. You *know* that there are no problems with experimentation. You *know* that there is no person anywhere whose concerns about casual sex are justified.

With an ego like that, why bother with sex?

alek0

I haven't said that. Different approaches are right for different people. That's all what I have been saying throughout this thread, in addition that there are problems in relationships (sexual or other) which can't be solved, and that it is arrogant to claim it isn't so just because you haven't experienced any.

Furthermore, I know that it is possible not to have problems with experimentation. I don't claim that nobody would have problems with experimentation. You and people like you claim that you know what is best for everyone. It is you and HelenM who are trivializing other people's problems and experiences based on your LIMITED experience and disregarding the fact that other people have DIFFERENT PRIORITIES and DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES. If something is wrong FOR YOU, doesn't mean it is wrong for everyone else, which you proceed to justify with pseudopsychological rubbish like "sex is too deep in human psyche".

The point here is, religious persons like you claim that it is better to wait till marriage. I still haven't seen valid answer why would that be the case, and I still haven't seen any evidence that it is truly better for everyone to wait till marriage.

seebs

A bit more commentary:

Any answer to this will necessarily be either out of ignorance or based on information which is, frankly, none of your damn business. Furthermore, if I answer this question, the next guy to come along who *doesn't* want to answer such a question looks like he's got something to hide.

Keep in mind, any sexual experiences I've had that weren't just masturbation involve some *other person's* private sex life, and it might be rude for me to go on chatting.

Anyway, for what it's worth, if I could never have sex with Beloved Spouse again, I'd stay with her. I didn't marry her for the sex. Now, if she stopped writing... Then I'd have to think real hard about how serious I was about those vows.

seebs

How can I know that anyone has experienced a problem which can't be solved?

Different approaches may be right for different people, but it seems questionable to assert this as provable fact.

And how can you know this? The world is full of people who, early in life, thought they had "no problems" with experimentation, and later changed their minds. I've done things I didn't have a problem with at the time, but came to regret much later.

When did I say I knew what was best for everyone? I have personal opinions about what is likely to be a good idea; I am making no effort to enforce these beliefs on anyone.

What makes you so sure my experience is more "limited" than yours? So far, we're exactly tied, at one lifetime each.

Yes, some people have different priorities. I believe that some of these priorities are ill-considered.

Gosh, let's go tell all the rape victims that it's just genitals, no big deal, nothing big to worry about, why the long face?

Trying to deny that sex has inherent specialness to it, in the human brain, strikes me as foolish.

What I have said is that I think sex is probably better for people within committed relationships, and that I find the arguments for premarital sex unpersuasive.

Most of them.

I think there's a fair case to be made for "I'm horny and I'll be happy if I have sex now".

That's a hell of a lot better argument than all of this bullshit about "establishing compatability" and "developing necessary experience".

lpetrich

Why is sex just for the fun of it supposed to be such a TERRIBLE sin?

seebs

I'm not entirely sure. I've seen a number of theoretical explanations.

The only one that really makes sense to me is the tendency for expectations and desires to come into conflict in such circumstances. I've known people who had what may or may not have been "sex just for the fun of it", and the result was a fair amount of angst; "will he call me again", things like that.

These, it seems to me, form some basic argument against sex with someone you don't know well enough to have discussed that kind of thing.

Is it grounds for condemnation? I don't personally think so; if people are desparate for things to condemn, I'd suggest usury.

jayh

Well if both partners don't work at it they won't.

But more importantly, why should one have to go through that waiting to try to solve them when it could have been seen early on that these problems exist?

It is the height of absurdity to insist that people enter the relationship blind until it's too late, and if it isn't a good fit, that they should then spend years trying to force the fit, just because of an arbitrary rule.

HelenM

I haven't read any posts insisting that people enter marriage 'blind'.

I don't understand why you equate no sex before marriage with entering it 'blind'. You can know plenty about your partner without having had sex with them. And I think you can know enough about their interests and level of commitment to you to be able to be confident that the sexual part of your marriage can be wonderful.

And as I've said, anyone who thinks they can know everything about their future spouse is kidding themselves. People change and there will always be some surprises.

But, yes, I'm in favor of getting to know the person you plan to marry. I just don't think that getting to know them well necessitates having sex with them before you marry them.

Helen