Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Photocrat · 01-09-2002, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
<strong>Moral-schmoral, old dear; until you or someone takes over humankind qua Brave New World, people are going to do as they please, reproduction-wise; & our/your vouchsafing opinions about that isn't either here nor there....</strong>

Just so I make it clear; I certainly think that having children is moral. My concern for the rationalization of it is for slightly more relevant reasons, as I intend to make clear eventually :]

Mageth · 01-09-2002, 10:21 PM

Having children is biological. Morality only comes into play, IMO, if those having the children cannot then provide for them at least an adequate, safe and caring environment.

Monkeybot · 01-09-2002, 11:27 PM

I don't think having children is inherently moral or immoral. The only exception I can think of is that having too many kids might either contribute to overpopulation; or that a person might have too many children and then not be able to take care of them, leading to that child's unnecessary suffering.

sidewinder · 01-10-2002, 05:33 AM

Good topic. I have pondered this question myself many times. I don't know if I would consider it moral or immoral. It depends on your personal viewpoint. I usually have a pessimistic view of life. I see much pointless pain, suffering, and death in the world and it causes me to ask why I would want to bring another person into this world to deal with this life. Again, it depends on the personal viewpoint.

Another person might have a much more optimistic view of life and think it's just fine to bring another person into this world. I suppose I have a tendency to view things in the larger picture whereas many people don't view life in this manner. The chances are very good that if you bring a child into the world in a civilized and wealthy country then you are giving them the best chance of having a good life.

There is also the biological factor which causes us to desire to procreate, and this is a strong factor which may override some of the philosophical objections to creating new life. Also, like another poster mentioned, it's impossible to predict the outcome of your offspring's life in general. There are too many factors involved.

tronvillain · 01-10-2002, 09:11 PM

Phorocrat, how long is "eventually" going to be?

Linus · 01-10-2002, 11:36 PM

This I find interesting! I have two thoughts to share.

Number one. I read many remarks related to the thought that your kids could be "naughty", that they could produce evil. What I did not read, is that procreation implies a growing number of people on this planet. And that is a great burden on natural resources. A professor I had at university said that that is why procreation is not moral. By having kids, you are placing a burden on the environment. (He also said that adoption is a good alternative, but that adopting a poor African -or whatever- is not a good idea, since the kid in Africa would not be such a strain on Mother Nature than a rich Western kid, which wants more food, energy, ...). Just a thought.

Secondly, this thread makes me think of a case in France of this week. The court decided that an 18 year old, with a mental handicap, has the right to a compensation because he lives. That is, the doctors should have diagnosed this during the mothers pregnancy so she could have an abortion. Now that's something to think about: getting money because you are alive! Telling a doctor "Thanks to you, I am alive. That will be one milion Euro please!"

French parliament is trying to do something about this situation... (Just thought you guys on the other side of the ocean would want to be informed.)

Linus

tronvillain · 01-11-2002, 12:33 AM

Linus: Procreation does not imply a growing number of people on this planet.

chickensoupforthebowl · 01-11-2002, 01:57 AM

Guess I'll be annoying and chime in with nothing important...

I find that having kids is incredibly selfish, and thus if you find someone being incredibly selfish immoral, then I guess you (or I) would have to find it immoral. I say this because there is really no way to know whether or not a kid wants to be born, what their life will be like, etc. Obviously no one asked you if you wanted to be born, or myself, or anyone else on this board, so it mainly came down to two people, assuming they didn't bang away and have us on accident, deciding that they wanted us (or one). Now, while there may be some rose colored glasses people out there who say stuff like "oh, i want to have a kid so s/he can enjoy all the wonder, the beauty, the love, etc., of life", I think it's a safe bet to think most people have kids because of reasons like "i want one", "they're cute", or something pretty lame. In fact, I've never met anyone in my personal life who has ever said they wanted to have a baby for the babies sake. In other words, it's usually just selfishness. I would have never known, or cared obviously, along with everyone else, if I never was born or existed.
Add in that the kid is going to eat a lot, produce a lot of waste in their life, clog up the highway with yet another car, and cry really loud so they annoy hundreds of movie viewers, then I could see you saying it's immoral.
Oh, but I'm sure that kid may end up being our next president (rolls eyes).

(Further, I see nothing at all immoral about slowly pushing towards the extinction of the human race, but I'm quite misanthropic.)

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: ChickenSoupForTheBowl ]</p>

Jamie_L · 01-11-2002, 05:32 AM

It's silly to talk about whether or not people "wanted" to be born. Before someone exists, they can't "want" anything. In fact, it takes a good many years of living before a human being is even capable of forming the concept of wishing they weren't born. By then the person has had so much environmental influence, that it's not even comparable to asking some baseline human entity if they want to be born. It's not like there's some version of your child out there in the nothingness that you pull out and put in the world.

Sure having kids can be described as selfish. So can eating. But it's not black and white. Having a kid because you want a living baby-doll to dress up, or to keep a boyfriend/girlfriend from leaving you is really selfish. Having a kid because you want to create a happy family is somewhat less selfish, I think.

And, as I've said tongue-in-cheek before, we don't doom these kids to an eternity of living in this world. None of us is stuck here. If someone wishes they were in the nothingness of non-existence, they have the means at their disposal.

Jamie

Bill Snedden · 01-11-2002, 06:23 AM

I would say that the choice has definite moral implications, but that the highly variable nature of the contexts wherein such choices are made renders gross generalization impossible.

In other words, individual decisions to procreate or not to procreate can certainly be criticized on moral or ethical grounds, but such judgements would be dependent upon the contexts in which the decisions were made.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

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01-09-2002, 10:21 PM	#12
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Having children is biological. Morality only comes into play, IMO, if those having the children cannot then provide for them at least an adequate, safe and caring environment.

01-09-2002, 11:27 PM	#13
Monkeybot Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,102	I don't think having children is inherently moral or immoral. The only exception I can think of is that having too many kids might either contribute to overpopulation; or that a person might have too many children and then not be able to take care of them, leading to that child's unnecessary suffering.

01-10-2002, 05:33 AM	#14
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	Good topic. I have pondered this question myself many times. I don't know if I would consider it moral or immoral. It depends on your personal viewpoint. I usually have a pessimistic view of life. I see much pointless pain, suffering, and death in the world and it causes me to ask why I would want to bring another person into this world to deal with this life. Again, it depends on the personal viewpoint. Another person might have a much more optimistic view of life and think it's just fine to bring another person into this world. I suppose I have a tendency to view things in the larger picture whereas many people don't view life in this manner. The chances are very good that if you bring a child into the world in a civilized and wealthy country then you are giving them the best chance of having a good life. There is also the biological factor which causes us to desire to procreate, and this is a strong factor which may override some of the philosophical objections to creating new life. Also, like another poster mentioned, it's impossible to predict the outcome of your offspring's life in general. There are too many factors involved.

01-10-2002, 09:11 PM	#15
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Phorocrat, how long is "eventually" going to be?

01-10-2002, 11:36 PM	#16
Linus Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	This I find interesting! I have two thoughts to share. Number one. I read many remarks related to the thought that your kids could be "naughty", that they could produce evil. What I did not read, is that procreation implies a growing number of people on this planet. And that is a great burden on natural resources. A professor I had at university said that that is why procreation is not moral. By having kids, you are placing a burden on the environment. (He also said that adoption is a good alternative, but that adopting a poor African -or whatever- is not a good idea, since the kid in Africa would not be such a strain on Mother Nature than a rich Western kid, which wants more food, energy, ...). Just a thought. Secondly, this thread makes me think of a case in France of this week. The court decided that an 18 year old, with a mental handicap, has the right to a compensation because he lives. That is, the doctors should have diagnosed this during the mothers pregnancy so she could have an abortion. Now that's something to think about: getting money because you are alive! Telling a doctor "Thanks to you, I am alive. That will be one milion Euro please!" French parliament is trying to do something about this situation... (Just thought you guys on the other side of the ocean would want to be informed.) Linus

01-11-2002, 12:33 AM	#17
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Linus: Procreation does not imply a growing number of people on this planet.

01-11-2002, 01:57 AM	#18
chickensoupforthebowl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 27	Guess I'll be annoying and chime in with nothing important... I find that having kids is incredibly selfish, and thus if you find someone being incredibly selfish immoral, then I guess you (or I) would have to find it immoral. I say this because there is really no way to know whether or not a kid wants to be born, what their life will be like, etc. Obviously no one asked you if you wanted to be born, or myself, or anyone else on this board, so it mainly came down to two people, assuming they didn't bang away and have us on accident, deciding that they wanted us (or one). Now, while there may be some rose colored glasses people out there who say stuff like "oh, i want to have a kid so s/he can enjoy all the wonder, the beauty, the love, etc., of life", I think it's a safe bet to think most people have kids because of reasons like "i want one", "they're cute", or something pretty lame. In fact, I've never met anyone in my personal life who has ever said they wanted to have a baby for the babies sake. In other words, it's usually just selfishness. I would have never known, or cared obviously, along with everyone else, if I never was born or existed. Add in that the kid is going to eat a lot, produce a lot of waste in their life, clog up the highway with yet another car, and cry really loud so they annoy hundreds of movie viewers, then I could see you saying it's immoral. Oh, but I'm sure that kid may end up being our next president (rolls eyes). (Further, I see nothing at all immoral about slowly pushing towards the extinction of the human race, but I'm quite misanthropic.) [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: ChickenSoupForTheBowl ]</p>

01-11-2002, 05:32 AM	#19
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	It's silly to talk about whether or not people "wanted" to be born. Before someone exists, they can't "want" anything. In fact, it takes a good many years of living before a human being is even capable of forming the concept of wishing they weren't born. By then the person has had so much environmental influence, that it's not even comparable to asking some baseline human entity if they want to be born. It's not like there's some version of your child out there in the nothingness that you pull out and put in the world. Sure having kids can be described as selfish. So can eating. But it's not black and white. Having a kid because you want a living baby-doll to dress up, or to keep a boyfriend/girlfriend from leaving you is really selfish. Having a kid because you want to create a happy family is somewhat less selfish, I think. And, as I've said tongue-in-cheek before, we don't doom these kids to an eternity of living in this world. None of us is stuck here. If someone wishes they were in the nothingness of non-existence, they have the means at their disposal. Jamie

01-11-2002, 06:23 AM	#20
Bill Snedden Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,597	I would say that the choice has definite moral implications, but that the highly variable nature of the contexts wherein such choices are made renders gross generalization impossible. In other words, individual decisions to procreate or not to procreate can certainly be criticized on moral or ethical grounds, but such judgements would be dependent upon the contexts in which the decisions were made. Regards, Bill Snedden

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