BioBeing

Where do angels come from?* They are not mentioned as being formed in Genesis. Did they already exist? Are they human? Or something else (the rest of the Elohim?)? When did God make them? Why? Do people really see angels even today? Why did Satan rebel?

Thanks!




(*) Assuming, for a minute that God exists, the bible is right, and all of that other mumbo jumbo

CaptainOfOuterSpace

Not a bad question; i've been trying to get some data on that myself. Apparently, according to Christians, there exists an entire super-society of Angels (and demons) that have "been there all along." (the Bible simply talks about the creation of Earth, not the creation of the super-society, so we really have no way of knowing when they were 'created'). The movie 'Dogma' illustrated this nicely.

Additional questions about angels might include:

- why do angels need wings?

- what is the medium in which they fly? (i.e. is there air in heaven? why?)

- are their bones hollow like a bird?

- The reason why birds can fly is because they have very developed pectoral muscles that are used for continued flapping of wings. For an "angel" to take flight on wings of generally-accepted size (i.e. 'Michael'), his/her breast muscles would have to be enormous.

- How powerful are they? (obviosly not omnipotent, but obviously more powerful than humans)

The reason why "Satan" rebelled against God is indeed a curious issue, as well:
- why would anyone choose to rebel against God if everyone knew that God is omnipotent and, by definition, cannot be "defeated"?
- why did God eternally punish Satan, instead of just having a nice laugh at one of his creations' many imperfections?

Beetle

Angel was a young Irish lad in the 1700s who was bitten by Darla and turned into a vampire. He then got his soul back due to a gypsy curse and... Oh, sorry, I thought you wanted Angel explained to you.

The whole concept of Angels always seemed wierd to me. Like an add on from a different religion that didn't fit very well when grafted into proto-judaism.

I always had a problem with Satan when I was a true believer. How mega-stupid would the guy have to be to challenge the omnipotent creator of the universe who controls the destiny of all things. Nobody's that stupid! Nobody real, anyway.

ImGod

I think the concept started because people wanted to think their deceased relatives were doing something useful in the afterlife. Spirits of the ancestors in one culture, angels in another.

I've always thought the concept of my deceased grandparents "watching over me" is rather creepy.

Mageth

- why do angels need wings?

I don't recall if they're ever described with wings in the bible. In most instances in the bible I can recall, angels appear to humans as ordinary men.

I like Philip Pullman's portrayal of God and Angels in His Dark Materials. IIRC, God was merely the first being to come into existence. He told other beings, when they came into existence, that he was the Creator God and created them.

God got old and weak and was controlled by bad "angels" (similar to Theoden in LoTR). Lucifer et al figured this out and were pissed, so rebelled. They were the good guys.

(This is my recollection; it's been a while, so it may not be entirely correct).

missus_gumby

Here is a list of all the known attributes - that I have been able to find - of biblical angels (excluding "sons of man"). It is worth noting that angels are never seen flying whist visiting the Earth, indeed they have to use ladders to reach the ground. Duplicate information is excluded, and it is quite possible I have omitted a few details by accident:

Old Testament - Angels

1. Genesis 16:09-16:12 - Angels have the ability to speak.
2. Genesis 19:02-19:03 - They have feet and can eat.
3. Genesis 28:11 - They climb up and down ladders to get to and from Heaven.
4. Exodus 3:2 - Angels can appear to people from in or near non-burning, burning bushes.
5. Numbers 22:23 - They carry and use swords.
6. Judges 5:23 - Angels issue curses.
7. Judges 6:11 - Angels can sit.
8. Judges 6:21 - They have hands and can carry a staff.
9. Judges 6:22 - They have faces.
10. Judges 13:06 - Angels have a terrible countenance.

11. Judges 13:18 - They can have secret names.
12. 2Samuel 24:16 - They destroy people.
13. Kings 19:05 - Angels can touch things.
14. 2kings 19:35 - Angels are not above killing 5180 Assyrians in one go.
15. Psalms 78:48 - Thay can be evil.
16. Zechariah 1:11 - Angels can stand.

New Testament - Angels

17. Matthew 1:20 - They can appear to people in dreams.
18. Matthew 25:41 - There are two kinds of angels - God's angels and the Devil's angels.
19. Matthew 28:02 - Angels can move medium sized rocks.
20. Matthew 28:03 - The have a countenance like lightening and their clothing is white.

21. Matthew 28:04 - Angels instill fear in people.
22. Mark 12:25 - They live in Heaven.
23. Luke 1:19 - One of them is called Gabriel.
24. Luke 1:26-1:38 - Angels are messengers.
25. Luke 15:10 - Angels experience joy every time a sinner repents.
26. Luke 16:22 - They can carry things.
27. Luke 20:36 - Angels don't die.
28. John 5:04 - They can interact physically with water to make it a special healing water.
29. John 20:12 - They ask rhetorical questions.
30. Acts 5:19 - Angels are not above springing folks from jail.

31. Acts 12:07 - They know how to undo chains.
32. Acts 12:10 - Angels can open gates.
33. 1Thessalonians 4:16 - There is a heirarchy of angels.
34. 1Thessalonians 4:16 - Angels have voices that can be similar to God's.
35. 2Thessalonians 1:07 - Angels are mighty.
36. Hebrews 12:22 - There is an innumerable amount of angels.
37. Hebrews 13:02 - Angels somtimes appear in the guise of humans.
38. Jude 1:09 - There is an archangel called Michael.
39. Revlations 5:02 - Angels can have loud voices.
40. Revelations 7:01 - They know where the four corners of the earth are.

41. Revelations 7:01 - Angels are able to hold the wind.
42. Revelations 8:04 - They burn incense.
43. Revelations 8:07 - They know how to play the trumpet.
44. Revelations 8:13 - When they are in heaven they can fly.
45. Revelations 10:01 - Angels can wear clouds and have rainbows on their heads.
46. Revelations 10:01 - They can have faces that shine as bright as the sun.
47. Revelations 10:01 - Angels sometimes have feet made of fire.
48. Revelations 10:02 - They have little books.
49. Revelations 10:04 - Angels can write.
50. Revelations 10:08 - Angels can stand on water.

51. Revelations 10:10 - Angels are not above giving humans little books to eat, but make them nice to taste, even though the little books, when eaten, give humans indigestion.
52. Revelations 12:07 - They fight with dragons.
53. Revelations 14:06 - Angels can speak every language.
54. Revelations 14:07 - They carry sharp sickles.
55. Revelations 15:06 - Angels wear white linen and golden girdles.
56. Revelations 18:21 - They can lift and throw millstones.
57. Revelations 19:17 - Angels can stand in the sun.
58. Revelations 20:01 - Angels have the key to the bottomless pit.
59. Revelations 22:26 - They are sent by Jesus.

Old Testament - Cherubim

1. Genesis 3:24 - Some Cherubim know where the eastern section of the garden of Eden is.
2. Exodus 25:20 - There are two gold cherubim carved small enough to fit on the ark of the covenant. They have wings, and faces.
3. Exodus 26:01 - Images of cherubim are woven into curtains.
4. 1Kings 6:23 - Large cherubim can be made of olive wood, covered in gold.
5. 1Kings 6:29 - Images of cherubim can be carved into walls.
6. 1Kings 6:32 - Images of cherubim can be carved into doors, and can be covered with gold.
7. 1Kings 7:29 - Images of cherubim can be incorporated into the borders of a 'molten sea'.
8. 1Kings 7:36 - ...and onto the plates of the ledges of the 'molten sea'.
9. 2Kings 19:15 - Hezekiah says that God dwells between cherubim.
10. 2Chronicles 3:13 - Images of Cherubim have feet.

11. Psalms 18:10 - God is small enough to ride on a cherub. Cherubs can fly.
12. Ezekiel 10:01 - Cherubim have heads.
13. Ezekiel 10:03 - Cherubim can stand.
14. Ezekiel 10:05 - Cherubim wings make a sound.
15. Ezekiel 10:07 - Cherubs have at least one hand, which is fireproof.
16. Ezekiel 10:08 - Cherubim can grow hands under their wings.
17. Ezekiel 10:20 - Cherubim are living creatures.
18. Ezekiel 28:14 - Cherubs have been to the holy mountain of God at least once and walked up and down it.
19. Ezekiel 41:18 - Images of cherubs can have two faces, a man and a lion.

Old Testament - Seraphim

1. Isaiah 6:02 - Seraphim sit above God's throne.
2. Isaiah 6:02 - Seraphim have six wings, two of which can cover a seraph face, two to cover the feet and two to fly.
3. Isaiah 6:03 - Seraphim are capable of speech.
4. Isaiah 6:06 - Seraphim are capable of using tongs to carry hot coals.
5. Isaiah 6:07 - Seraphim can lay a hot coal on someones mouth which will take away iniquity and purge sin.

Martin

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by missus_gumby
Hezekiah says that God dwells between cherubim.

Well I was off my tits that night. Will I never live this down?

Badfish

That was good missus_gumby.

Angels were created before man as evidenced by Satans creation before man. And Michael and others.

This raises the question to me, and maybe I am off topic, but possibly man was created to fulfill a grand play as a showing to the angels at least in part. I mean it would explain the seemingly pre-conformed nature of man. And would explain why an omniscient being allows all this to play out, like why create beings only to know their destination and their every move before they make it, and not intervene.

There is some good stuff out there about this concept, but don't let anyone fool you, this was my idea.

Magus55

God created Angels for specific purposes. There are different ranks of angels - all with a different purpose.

Angels were probably created around the same time as the rest of the universe, although there is no definite answer.

Angels aren't human, however they can take the form of humans. Angels have no physical body normally - they are spirits.
If you've ever seen the movie Bless the Child, at the end when they are in the church and she gets shot at the altar, brilliant white and colored lights come down to her. Imo, thats what angels are like when they are visible and not in human form - but thats just my opinion

Well, obviously the issue of humans seeing angels has two sides, since no one on this board will agree they even exist. But from a Christian perspective, yes they do. A sighting someone told me about. This guys dad was very sick in the hospital. A nurse saw some stranger in a coat enter his dads room. The nurse walked to the room to see who it was, or what he was doing. She entered the room and the stranger in the coat was gone - with no other way out of the room, other than the door the nurse went in. When his family got there to visit, the nurse told them an angel visited his dad.

Why did Satan rebell? Because like alot of people, they aren't content having someone with authority over them. Satan didn't want to be God's servant, he wanted people to serve him.

Badfish

That's interesting Magus...

And I concur because that is how Angels are described. Basically.

I believe Michael is the head angel now that Satan is gone.