The Other Michael

I don't really understand this drive to worship.

First, let's exclude the case of the wrathful diety who thunders "thou shalt worship me or else" and who holds us over the flames like a loathsome insect.

For discussion purposes let's say there is Diety A, who meets the usual omnimax requirements, but doesn't give a flip if you worship it or not.

Would you worship Diety A?

've got no problem with acknowledging when someone/something is highly talented/skilled/etc.

I could see saying "yes, that Diety A is really some diety, eh? All powerful, all knowing, and can really cut a rug down at the local juke joint on Saturday nights".

But I don't see any reason to worship Diety A.

I don't worship Albert Einstein, and I don't think I'd feel like worshipping someone 20X the intellect he was, or even 1000X.

I might well stand in awe of that person's abilities, but beyond giving credit where due, nothing remotely like worship.

Is this just part of lacking that "faith" gene?

cheers,
Michael

wildernesse

What do you define as worship? I think that standing in awe of an omnimax god and giving it the credit were credit was due might look a lot like worship.

--tiba

Typhon

Human worship I can understand, in the face of a god or even god-like being.

Hell, we worship cars, and authors, movies stars, pop singers, sports teams, and even fellow members of the species who can kick a small round ball through a fairly wide netted framework, which has only one highly disadvantaged fellow trying desperately to block the shot.

What I'm much, much, much more skeptical of is that any god or god-like being would possibly want or require such worship.

This one, especially among the various sects of fundamentalist Christianity, really gets me in stitches. We only like unabashed groveling ourselves because we're a bunch of small minded, nasty tempered, highly insecure whinging bastards who can never get enough ego stroking to make us feel truly worthy of our own often selfish desires. I certainly hope that god or the gods were a slight bit better than that projected set of very human faults and frailties.

.T.

Perchance

I don't understand "worship" either, at least in the sense of giving up time, money, and (depending on the religion) literal sacrifices, such as animals, to the cause of a god.

I have been told in the past that I don't have much humility (which I readily acknowledge is true ) and so wouldn't want to worship a god out of sheer stubbornness. It's true that, even if I knew a deity existed, if it had the Christian God's record, I wouldn't want to worship it. But, on the other hand, things I prize like beauty, starlight, sunlight, poetry, music, and certain shades of color (not to mention people I love) exist. I am awed by them, sometimes. I feel joy around them, or at least contentment. But I don't fall on my knees and want to turn my life over to them, and I'm certainly not dedicated enough to set aside a certain period of time every day or every week to just appreciate quality x. (I have tried establishing routines before, such as reading a certain amount of poetry x times a week, but it never works; it gets to feel too much like a chore, and then it's not fun anymore).

Is there a difference between the emotions that might lead someone to worship (such as awe, joy, delight), and the practices of worship (prayer, sacrifices, chanting?) The former I can understand, and think are common to many, if not all, people. The latter seem to be inventions of specific cultures.

And if that last part is true, then I don't understand why the Jehovah's Witnesses that keep coming to our door think we need to use just these practices to appreciate something beautiful in just the way they do.

-Perchance.

John Page

Tell them you're Catholic. Or Mormon. Either will do. If the others call, tell them your a Jehovah's Witness.

P.S. Don't put the star of david on your door, especially in europe.

The Other Michael

Typhon and tiba,

What Perchance said.

I can look out at the night sky and think how HUGE everything is, and that it is pretty neat to think of all of that stuff out there.

But I don't worship the universe.

And I've never understood the idolizing of celebrities, sports figures, etc. I have no problems admitting that Valentino Rossi is, by several orders of magnitude, a far better motorcycle racer than I'll ever hope to be, and there are many people who do those odd stick and/or ball sports that I'd not be close to matching in skill, but I don't have any urge to worship them.

I might be envious of someone else's success at something but that's about it.

"Wow, that Yahweh sure is something, and he gets all the good bits of the sacrifices too, I wish I could be that omnimax and well fed".

Looking in my elderly dictionary (no, not a dictionary for old people) I find "obsequious respect or devotion, to idolize," kind of down the list of definitions, but they pretty much fit my personal definition (with obsequious being "serviley attentive, fawning").

At least that is what I tend to see when people say they are "worshiping".

That doesn't seem to me to be just an honest acknowledgement of some achievement or skill.

Instead, I'd think a sensible person would take more of the <faux Austalian accent> "Eh, Yahwah, good on yer mate, 'ave another pint" attitude.

I guess I don't see a need to abase myself in order to acknowledge someone else's accomplishments.

cheers,
Michael

wildernesse

Perchance asks:
Acts of worship are part of the culture—which is why there are different means, and debates over what constitutes worship (like the debate over whether musical instruments should be used in praise/worship). But the ability to revere something is human (or a “high” primate), I think. Jane Goodall thinks that chimps may feel awe. <a href="http://www.lessonsforhope.org/abc/waterdisplay.asp" target="_blank">link</a>

What is interesting to me, is that this doesn’t seem to be objecting to worship itself (awe/reverence of divine being), but to faith in the thing you are worshipping—turning your life over to it and changing your life according to its purposes. Which I think are two different things—living by faith and worshipping the thing you have faith in. You can obey something and not worship it. Whether you can worship something and not obey it, may be a different thing.

--tiba

Typhon

Why does a hypothetical creator desire worship from his creation?

I built an ant farm when I was a child. I found the tiny lives of the inhabitants interesting, for a while, but I certainly had no desire for them to either love or seek communion with me.

I highly doubt that had I created the entire universe, that I would be the slightest bit interested in the worship of some insignificant species of hominid living on one particular planet in an off corner of my creation.

It's bad enough that there is no evidence for anything but a naturalistic, "god-less" universe, but there is even less for supposing a hypothetical god would need or desire worship from human beings.

.T.

Paddy

Having once been a Christian myself I am able to say that many Christians worship god ostensibly because of their belief that Jesus died for their sins (I use the word "ostensibly" because it is my belief that most will worship because they are told to but justify their efforts by claiming it is out of love for a saviour). However, this seems to be a 'foot-in-the-door' technique used by many 'charismatic' churches to begin Christians on their 'spiritual journey', and is subsequently reinforced by emotive rants, pressure to conform, and the encouragement of deindividuation. It does not take long, within this environment, for a person to become conditioned into believing that the emotional/sensory overload they experience when worshipping can be attributed to the presence of god, and not the group dynamic that is taking place; this is reinforcing in and of itself. I would not be surprised if the worship within other religions has been augmented by similar plays on emotion.

Perchance

Too late for that, unfortunately. I answered the door to two of them a couple weeks ago, endured the spiel, had the woman of the pair ask me where I thought I was going to spend eternity, and told her that a lot of people thought I was going to be in eternal hellfire (which is true according to those people). While they were still gaping, I shut the door.

Another pair came by last weekend, but my mother opened the door, said, "Do you mind? I'm drying my hair," and shut it.

I think they realize we're non-believers, but hopefully they don't think of us as easy targets .

And wildernesse:

Faith would be even more difficult for me because of the connotations it implies of believing without proof, and, essentially, having to ignore things that either contradict or appear to contradict your faith.

As to whether it's possible to worship something without obeying it, that's an interesting question. Going through the practices of worship, though, even prayer, as I have done in the past, makes me feel silly. I keep wondering what it looks like from outside, to see someone kneeling in the middle of a room and whispering to the air.

I don't think I could ever really become comfortable with it.

-Perchance.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>