fatherphil

well to give you a different perspective, i've seen some pretty vile behaviour from trolls on a "Christian" influenced board and i did not assume it typified atheists as a whole. i'm glad to see my assumption proved correct.

Debbie T

I am not quite sure what you are saying so if I am getting what you said wrong please correct me and we will go from there. When I am talking about loving myself its not a selfish thing.
Perhaps that is what Christians think loving one self is?

I don't worry about desires being there, but then I don't desire harmful things for myself or for others. That is because I love myself enough to not want something harmful, whether it be in a relationship or simply taking something into my body that is harmful. The desires of the flesh? If I have desires for my husband even before we were married it was a natural part of myself. Something I have no need to beat myself up for having desires that are natural when attracted to another human being. If I found myself finding another man attractive, I still wouldn't beat myself up for it, as a thought does not bring harm to myself or any other. I love myself and my husband too much to act on any passing desire that would cause harm to both my husband and myself if acted upon.

As a Christian I couldn't love myself in this way. I could not find grace for myself, forgiveness and grace always had to come from outside myself. The reminder came with it that I was not worthy, and that some entity always required me to worhsip it and be grateful this entity kept me alive and then called it mercy and grace.

Not sure what you are saying here. But I am reminded of being in a jet and the stewardess instructs you in emergencies. Before you help your child with their oxygen mask, you are instructed to put on your own. You can not help another until you yourself is safe. I equate this with loving oneself and helping oneself. You can not love another without loving yourself and same with helping another that if you can't help yourself first you certainly can not help another very well.

I see the Christian religion is always instructing self-denial and self love. But to be able to love another you can't adequately love until you love yourself.

When I see someone treating another person with disrespect or hateful behavior whether it be a Christian, or atheist or any other person, I see a person that does not respect or love themselves.

braces_for_impact

While I agree that both theists and atheists have been known to to show hate, bigotry, vitriol, etc. I feel compelled to point out that the Christian is supposed to be holding themself to a higher standard. In most contexts, this is the ideal of a divine man/deity Jesus Christ, who instructs his followers on how to deal with other people in an ethical way. Those of other religions have their dieties and/or prophets instructing them on how to behave also. Yet by looking around, it is self evident that regardless of religious affiliation, people act like people. If just ONE religion were to consistently demonstrate that it's followers were of peace of mind, calm, ethical and so on, it would speak volumes as to what the "true" religion of the world should be. Of course, people are imperfect, and sometimes say things they do not mean or behave innappropriately, but even in making amends for these errors, people could demonstrate their views remarkably well without ever having to say a word.

With regards to Christianity in particular, it seems this religion cheapens what should be held most 'sacred'. You may empathize with many people, you may wish them well, and you may treat them as such, but it is simply not possible to love everyone. If we truly felt a deep everlasting love for all of humanity we would be crippled whenver something bad were to happen. Forgiveness, love, respect, Christianity seems to me to whore these noble tennents of humanity. As someone mentioned earlier, in most denominations of Christinaity I am familiar with, one must seek virtue from the outside. When I err against someone, I seek reconciliation with them, not some outside being while fearing my own punishment or reward. It only makes sense that true virtue can only come from within. No one can provide these for you.

Forgive my sentence structure, I am on some killer pain medication...

Asha'man

I’ve always seen the hypocrisy of the “born-again” Christians to be the worst. They claim that they have opened their heart to Jesus, that the Holy Ghost has filled them. Clearly, with God at the helm, a dramatic personality shift should be quite evident. They should be “holy,” showing inner peace, kindness, and love to everybody they meet.

However, a simple observation of reality shows that the “born-again” Christians are no better (or worse) than anyone else. They display the full range of human strengths and frailties, including anger and hate. Whatever happened to them appears to have had no measurable effect.

malookiemaloo

One thing being this short time on the Sec Web is the complete uslessness of getting angry with non-theists, most of whom are actually very knowledgeable-certainly more than me in many cases.

I remember one of my past ministers saying about another minister who was on dodgy ground in one part of his sermon. His note on his sermon was 'argument weak here, shout louder'.

I also rather get the impression that some dogmatic American fundis come onto the web expecting to convert everybody and get angry when they don't. They take it almost personally.

Well, that's my tuppence worth.


m

Rhea

Wonderful quote.

Radorth

Really? Who called you insulting names? Let us know so we can compare them with

Liar
Asshole
Idiot
Dickhead
Prick
Green shit
etc


(BFI) Well no. We've just heard how there are no virtually no atheists in prison, so one would expect them to live up to a higher standard of holiness than Christians who apparently fill American prisons. Of course the whole idea of comparing holiness is foolish as we are all rather fragile fellow hypocrites by any rational and fair standard.

(BFI) I disagree and I think those who see us all as pretty much equal and frail, and very precious in the eyes of God can be said to love themselves and others equally. Meanwhile those who create threads just to knock others personally and question their motives have little or no ability to love others equally. It shows in their posts.

We've been assured that turning the other cheek is an insult, and not one skeptic argued with the assertion.

This whole thread is hypocritical since almost nobody participating in it HERE has said here that Jesus was a bad dude. Most of the same participants would say ELSEWHERE that he was. We've recently heard elsewhere that if Christians were really following God, they would be out killing people. Today we're hearing they ought to be more like Christ, whom they have impugned elsewhere. So I ask

Pointed question #1: IS JESUS ONE TO BE IMITATED OR NOT?

Pointed question # 2: IF SO, HOW IS IT WE SHOULD NOT IMITATE HIS SARCASM AND CONDEMNATION OF UNBELIEVERS? (Not that we even do the latter without reserve or discernment)

No, you cannot have it both ways, my fellow hypocrites. No indeed.

Rad

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Radorth
Really? Who called you insulting names? Let us know

Magus55, Douglas Bender, lcb.

so we can compare them with

Why is necessary to do any comparisons? Is this something Christians are encouraged to do?

But just for the record, a Christian once called me a "fat unemployed lesbian who couldn't catch herself a husband". I don't think anything measures up to that.

This whole thread is hypocritical since almost nobody participating in it HERE has said here that Jesus was a bad dude.

I don't think Jesus was a "bad dude" any more than I think you are a "bad dude".

Most of the same participants would say ELSEWHERE that he was.

The point is not Jesus's character. The point is what Jesus told his followers to do, and what a small subset of his followers actually do.

We've recently heard elsewhere that if Christians were really following God, they would be out killing people. Today we're hearing they ought to be more like Christ, whom they have impugned elsewhere.

To the best of my knowledge, I have never stated that Christians would be out killing people. Perhaps you could take this matter up with whoever made the original assertion regarding murder by Christians.

So I ask

Pointed question #1: IS JESUS ONE TO BE IMITATED OR NOT?

I don't know. Did Jesus say that one should imitate him, or perhaps his father, who is him?

Pointed question # 2: IF SO, HOW IS IT WE SHOULD NOT IMITATE HIS SARCASM AND CONDEMNATION OF UNBELIEVERS?

I believe the worst of Jesus's sarcasm was directed towards the hypocrites, the scribes and Pharisees. In other words, the people who pretended to be holy, but weren't. Please feel free to correct me with biblical quotes, though.

No, you cannot have it both ways, my fellow hypocrites. No indeed.

Whom are you addressing here, Magus?

Radorth

Re: Ashaman

Well I guess that pretty much negates the comments about spurly, wildernesse and Helen, and leaves me no reason not to imitate Christ in all ways.

Thanks for the help in undoing the entire thread rationale.

Unbelievable.

Rad

fatherphil

debbie, self love in and of itself is morally nuetral. i think, in the biblical context, it was meant to mean the things we do to tend to our own needs. and how that tends to be something we do automatically regardless of how those needs are percieved by the outside world.
in other words, the person who cuts themselves due to a self loathing sees to his own need for self destruction. in that way he ultimately loves himself enough to seek relief in self mutilation.

i define self love this way to make sense of a commandment that i believe is universal regardless of one's mental state. i mean it must be applicable to those with self esteam issues as well as sociopaths like me.