Freethought & Rationalism Archive

B. H. Manners · 10-18-2002, 09:51 AM

How do we know that the God portrayed in the Bible is really not Satanic lies? It has been proven objectively that the Bible has been edited over time by human hands. Some manuscripts of the Bible have chapters missing that are found in others, and individual passages in one text have been changed to something entirely different from the equivalent passage in another manuscript. I am not referring to minor spelling errors either.
Since Satan is evil and no doubt willing to corrupt the Bible if he could, and changes have been documented, how do we know Satan may not have inspired the Bible or parts of it? How can we tell what parts are inspired of God and which are Satan's words? Also, since Satan knows Christians and Jews believe "Since God said it it is automatically truth" it seems to me that the devil would make Bible corruption his #1 goal. What better way to cause mayhem than convince people that God ordered them to believe such and do such and such so as to have life. Since Christians and Jews (and Moslems) believe it is wrong to question the commands and teachings of the Bible what better way for Satan to give bad laws and stifle opposition from freethinkers, psychologists, sociologists, everyday reflection by man, ect. than convince them that it is false doctrine to say the advice found in the Bible may be bad.

davidH · 10-18-2002, 10:01 AM

Good question, you raise a good point - he would have tried to corrupt the Bible.

You can actually see this happening through history - Bible was unavailable to the normal "layman", only the priests were allowed it.

Campaigns to destroy the Bible - many were burnt in attempts to rid it from society etc.

Quote:

Since Christians and Jews (and Moslems) believe it is wrong to question the commands and teachings of the Bible what better way for Satan to give bad laws and stifle opposition from freethinkers, psychologists, sociologists, everyday reflection by man, ect

I'm a Christian and I don't think it's wrong to question the commands - I have and there is nothing wrong with them.

You ask why I as a Christian see the Bible as from God and not Satanic.

Reason: I know from personal experience (but that will not prove anything for you).

I also see prophecy in the Bible - it's ability to fortell the future.
That is something only God could do - he would have to either not be limited by time, or be able to control everything to work out the way he has said - or both.

Satan is only an angel - he can't do this.

That's basically why I believe the Bible is from God.

But then all this discussion will descend into is - whether the whole Bible is made by Satan...

But since Satan can't tell the future....it can't have been him.

Tom Sawyer · 10-18-2002, 10:07 AM

DavidH,

How do you know that Satan can't tell the future? Perhaps he only makes people think that he can't tell the future, so that when someone accuses him of being Satan, he can just tell the future to prove them wrong and make them think he's God.

That sort of thing would be just like him. He's such a scamp.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

leonarde · 10-18-2002, 10:17 AM

You could try "carding" Him....

Bible Humper · 10-18-2002, 10:53 AM

Hello DavidH,

Quote:

Reason: I know from personal experience (but that will not prove anything for you).

You're right about it not proving anything to us, but lets discuss what it proves to you.

First, how can you assert that you would be able to perceive if your "experiences" were the work of the evil deity often called "the king of lies"? Surely you can't!

Related to this is, of course, the existence of thousands of religions throughout the world, each of which has convinced believers.

I guess you've never looked at the rest of the world's religions to see that wondrous emotional episodes of "experiencing the deity" are nothing unique to christianity. Let me guess, the rest of the world, through ignorance, has fallen victim to religious indoctrination and this is where the origins of their experiences lie, right?

Well lets see, if this is true we can identify the thought control techniques utilized by these rival faiths, which they must be using in order to compete with XInanity, and answer this question once and for all!

Oh damn, would ya look at that! It seems that the process of child indoctrination is indistinguishable from "teaching them how to experience the deity" or "emotionally praising the deity " in your own sect. It's a damn good thing that you were born where they raise the children with the one real religion out of all those frauds, eh?

And we can be sure that your sect isn't one of the myriad religions that has got it wrong, because YOU couldn't ever be bamboozled by a religion that isn't true! No way, not you! If YOU feel Jesus, then by god Jesus most definately exists. If HE feels Vishnu, then by god the poor lad's brainwashed!

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Quote:

But since Satan can't tell the future....it can't have been him.

Hold on there, the church has declared hundreds of divination techniques to be taboo. If Satan can tell the future, then your answer here is wrong. If only Yahweh can tell the future, why did the church outlaw divination?

Marduk · 10-18-2002, 10:57 AM

"How do we know God is really not Satan?"

If such beings existed there is no way humans would have to discern who was who. I believe the early Gnostic Christians thought the Old Testament God was Satan because he created the material world, which they saw as evil.

B. H. Manners · 10-18-2002, 03:08 PM

Satan can't tell the future?

Go read up in Acts and you will see the apostle Paul exorcized a demon for that very thing. It said that Paul was "greatly disturbed" with a devil predicting the future. I wonder why?

Yes, Christians can claim personal experience but how do you know it was not Satan in disguise? Also, if it is objected that Satan cannot do anything good and the Bible contains good, therefore proving Satainc authorship false, I will respond that the best way for the devil to deceive was to mix bad into good.

WinAce · 10-18-2002, 03:11 PM

Quote:

<a href="http://www.gate.com/~zardoz/jesus.htm" target="_blank">Should We Admire Jesus?</a>

Jesus, Satan, or both?

The following will no doubt upset many naive Christians, but if anyone wishes to indulge in Christian lore, the image of Jesus and God has an amazing twist that few Christians realize or want to think about. It begins from two incredible verses from the Old Testament :

"AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

-I Chronicles 21:1 (KJV)

"AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

-II Samuel 24:1 (KJV)

Either the above examples give evidence for a grand error or fiction in the Bible or else we have Satan and the Lord as the same entity! Also from the Old Testament we have the revelation of the creator of evil:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

-God in Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

How many Christians realize God as the creator of evil? And if you believe that Jesus equals God in the flesh, then Jesus must also hold responsibility for the creation of evil. (See also evil and good from God: Lamentations 3:38-39)

Now here comes an even more shocking Bible realization: the name "Lucifer" (another name for Satan) means light bearer, or morning star.

On the very last page of the Bible Jesus reveals himself and provides the amazing kicker ending of the entire "Holy" Bible:

"I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

-Revelations 22:16 (KJV)

Perhaps the reader will now understand why some Satanist cults use the same Bible as the Christians.

Note:

The idea of the name Lucifer as synonymous with Satan goes back for centuries. In Isaiah 14:12, St. Jerome, translated the Hebrew word for "morning star" into the Latin term "Lucifer" (light bearer), a name commonly ascribed to Satan by Christians, and represents the fallen star, an ancient symbol for the fallen or evil one. In the NRSV Bible version, Isaiah 14:12 describes the fallen as "O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The Day Star, or morning star actually refers to the planet Venus, although, of course, the ancients did not know they were looking at a planet. The morning star (Venus) was a symbol for an fallen evil being. Although the Isaiah verse describes the fallen king of Babylon, Christians have, for centuries, ascribed Satan as taking many forms (for example the serpent). Thus, a conclusion, based on Christian beliefs of Satan, and the belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, one must conclude that Jesus has revealed himself as Satan!

Hey, now all that genocide, murder, infanticide and eternal torture of nonbelievers in the Bible makes perfect sense! The Gnostics were really on to something.

B. H. Manners · 10-18-2002, 03:21 PM

How do believers not know Satan was the one who faked Christ's death and resurrection?

Talking about variant texts of the Bible:

There are at least five different endings of Mark.

Luke and John have a least one or two stories inserted into them that are not in other copies of the same said books (the adulterous woman Jesus saves is one of them).

There are variant manuscripts of I John, containing verses not found in others.

There are variant copies of Romans which say entirely different things from the other copies.

There are versions of Exodus, Jeremiah and Isaiah that contain extra chapters that other copies do not have.

Jeremiah Chapter 7 complains that the pen of the scribes has turned the law into a lie.

It has been known for a long time the Daniel in Protestant Bibles does not contain stories the Catholic Bible does.

The Septuagint is missing a lot of portions that the Masoretic text has, but contains the material for the most part found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If believers object saying that "objective" Christians scholars have found out for sure what are true portions of scripture and which are false additions I will ask how they could know for sure unless 1. they had copies of every manuscript ever made or 2. They had the original autographs and could prove them as such.

If they do not have one or two above, all they have is guesswork. It is possible that the copies that the Christians scholars say are forged (A) may in fact be older than the ones they say are true (B), it is just there are no copies left of (A) before a certain time period whereas (B) has a few parchments left and so can give the facade of being older than (A). However, the scholars have no way to know this. It is also possible that variant texts could have existed during the same time and competed for popularity.

If scholars say that the style of writings allows us to date manuscripts I will respond that it is fallicious too. It is a known fact that manuscripts are written in older style so as to make the manuscript look older or cosmetically more pleasing.

So, how do we know Satan did not inspire parts of the Bible?

1. He knew that believers would accept anything written in the Bible as unchallengable. No doubt he would want to put some bad stuff in there parading as the word of God in order to cause harm and misery.

2. Variant texts have been proven to exist and it is an objective fact.

3. The only way one could tell what is God's word and what is not is for there to be an objective set of values which even God is subject too.

atrahasis · 10-18-2002, 11:14 PM

I can't start debating on what i know and have evidence does not exist.....Satan....God...Jesus.....Neeeee

Its like asking, who is stronger Hercules or Atlas....This would be O.K for those who beleive but not me....Neeeee

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10-18-2002, 09:51 AM	#1
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	How do we know God is really not Satan? How do we know that the God portrayed in the Bible is really not Satanic lies? It has been proven objectively that the Bible has been edited over time by human hands. Some manuscripts of the Bible have chapters missing that are found in others, and individual passages in one text have been changed to something entirely different from the equivalent passage in another manuscript. I am not referring to minor spelling errors either. Since Satan is evil and no doubt willing to corrupt the Bible if he could, and changes have been documented, how do we know Satan may not have inspired the Bible or parts of it? How can we tell what parts are inspired of God and which are Satan's words? Also, since Satan knows Christians and Jews believe "Since God said it it is automatically truth" it seems to me that the devil would make Bible corruption his #1 goal. What better way to cause mayhem than convince people that God ordered them to believe such and do such and such so as to have life. Since Christians and Jews (and Moslems) believe it is wrong to question the commands and teachings of the Bible what better way for Satan to give bad laws and stifle opposition from freethinkers, psychologists, sociologists, everyday reflection by man, ect. than convince them that it is false doctrine to say the advice found in the Bible may be bad.

10-18-2002, 10:07 AM	#3
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	DavidH, How do you know that Satan can't tell the future? Perhaps he only makes people think that he can't tell the future, so that when someone accuses him of being Satan, he can just tell the future to prove them wrong and make them think he's God. That sort of thing would be just like him. He's such a scamp. [ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

10-18-2002, 10:17 AM	#4
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	You could try "carding" Him....

10-18-2002, 10:57 AM	#6
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"How do we know God is really not Satan?" If such beings existed there is no way humans would have to discern who was who. I believe the early Gnostic Christians thought the Old Testament God was Satan because he created the material world, which they saw as evil.

10-18-2002, 03:08 PM	#7
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Satan can't tell the future? Go read up in Acts and you will see the apostle Paul exorcized a demon for that very thing. It said that Paul was "greatly disturbed" with a devil predicting the future. I wonder why? Yes, Christians can claim personal experience but how do you know it was not Satan in disguise? Also, if it is objected that Satan cannot do anything good and the Bible contains good, therefore proving Satainc authorship false, I will respond that the best way for the devil to deceive was to mix bad into good.

10-18-2002, 03:21 PM	#9
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	How do believers not know Satan was the one who faked Christ's death and resurrection? Talking about variant texts of the Bible: There are at least five different endings of Mark. Luke and John have a least one or two stories inserted into them that are not in other copies of the same said books (the adulterous woman Jesus saves is one of them). There are variant manuscripts of I John, containing verses not found in others. There are variant copies of Romans which say entirely different things from the other copies. There are versions of Exodus, Jeremiah and Isaiah that contain extra chapters that other copies do not have. Jeremiah Chapter 7 complains that the pen of the scribes has turned the law into a lie. It has been known for a long time the Daniel in Protestant Bibles does not contain stories the Catholic Bible does. The Septuagint is missing a lot of portions that the Masoretic text has, but contains the material for the most part found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If believers object saying that "objective" Christians scholars have found out for sure what are true portions of scripture and which are false additions I will ask how they could know for sure unless 1. they had copies of every manuscript ever made or 2. They had the original autographs and could prove them as such. If they do not have one or two above, all they have is guesswork. It is possible that the copies that the Christians scholars say are forged (A) may in fact be older than the ones they say are true (B), it is just there are no copies left of (A) before a certain time period whereas (B) has a few parchments left and so can give the facade of being older than (A). However, the scholars have no way to know this. It is also possible that variant texts could have existed during the same time and competed for popularity. If scholars say that the style of writings allows us to date manuscripts I will respond that it is fallicious too. It is a known fact that manuscripts are written in older style so as to make the manuscript look older or cosmetically more pleasing. So, how do we know Satan did not inspire parts of the Bible? 1. He knew that believers would accept anything written in the Bible as unchallengable. No doubt he would want to put some bad stuff in there parading as the word of God in order to cause harm and misery. 2. Variant texts have been proven to exist and it is an objective fact. 3. The only way one could tell what is God's word and what is not is for there to be an objective set of values which even God is subject too.

10-18-2002, 11:14 PM	#10
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	I can't start debating on what i know and have evidence does not exist.....Satan....God...Jesus.....Neeeee Its like asking, who is stronger Hercules or Atlas....This would be O.K for those who beleive but not me....Neeeee

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