Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by Magus55
Nope never thought about that since God wasn't the one who tortured, abused, and executed Jesus

If it wasn't for God's need for sacrifice - the bloodier the better - would Jesus have died?

- your dear sweet "not inherently evil" human brethren did.

There's that Christian love-masquerading-as-insults again. Show us some more of it, Magus; it's charming to see how True Christians behave.

Our disobeying God is what killed Jesus - its our fault not Gods.

And that wasn't an insult - you consider humans to be good people by nature - yet those good people beat, tortured, spit on, and brutally executed someone who was only trying to promote peace and love.

oriecat · 02-23-2003, 09:04 PM

Now hold on. First you say "he would have never sacrifice his son to save you" and then you say "God wasn't the one" and "its our fault not Gods". So which is it? Did he sacrifice his son or was it our fault? Or will you try to say that it's our fault he had to sacrifice his son? But we didn't ask him to, did we? So how does that make it our fault?

Queen of Swords · 02-23-2003, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Our disobeying God is what killed Jesus - its our fault not Gods.

So God didn't actually require that Jesus die? He never told Jesus that he wanted a blood sacrifice before people's sins would be forgiven?

And that wasn't an insult - you consider humans to be good people by nature

I do? Can you find the place where I said I considered this, or are you employing some Super Duper Mind Reading Powers?

- yet those good people beat, tortured, spit on, and brutally executed someone who was only trying to promote peace and love.

This would be the same person who said, "I come to bring not peace, but a sword"?

lpetrich · 02-23-2003, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And that wasn't an insult - you consider humans to be good people by nature - yet those good people beat, tortured, spit on, and brutally executed someone who was only trying to promote peace and love.

If Jesus Christ had been God, he would have had no trouble enduring those torments, for an omnipotent being, those torments would have been pinpricks -- at best.

And he could easily have jumped off of that cross.

Mr. Peace and Love also talked about breaking up everybody's families, and for someone who forbade name-calling, he directed a lot of name-calling at the Scribes and Pharisees.

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 10:58 PM

Oriecat - because humans decided to disobey God, we fell from grace. Our fault - we are sinful and no longer good with God. Because we chose to disobey God, we set ourselves up for eternal death ( Hell). But since God loves us - he gave us another chance to get back into his good standings by coming to earth in human form and paying the penalty for all our sins - since God is perfect, Jesus' blood had the power to cleanse the sins of all who believe in him. ( in the OT - lambs were sacrificed for sins before Jesus - but since Jesus was the perfect lamb ( sacrifice) - he covered ALL sins past present and future. So its our fault we fell from God, but God wouldn't allow us to perish without a way out.

lpetrich - Jesus was both fully God and fully human. He was completely flesh, born of a woman - but he was perfect and sinless. Jesus was God coming down to Earth and becoming a man to be on our level. So he felt the pain just as bad as you would if it happened to you. His body responds to pain just like ours, it hurts alot. And yes he could have jumped off the cross. But he knew he was gonna be sacrificed - the whole reason God came to earth in human form was to pay the price for our sins and become the perfect sacrifice for all that believe in him. If he jumped off the cross - we would still have no way to escape Hell.

rebelnerd · 02-23-2003, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Where do you think God resides?

Between your ears.

Filo

oriecat · 02-23-2003, 11:49 PM

Tell me something I haven't heard before! You completely ignored my questions. The remark you made was that it was our fault jesus died, not that it is our fault we fell from God. They are separate issues.

Magus55 · 02-24-2003, 12:48 AM

Sorry i misread your question then. No its not Gods fault we fell from him - he didn't force us to disobey - we chose to disobey him.

Queen of Swords · 02-24-2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Magus55
Sorry i misread your question then. No its not Gods fault we fell from him - he didn't force us to disobey - we chose to disobey him.

And he could have chosen to simply forgive us. Instead, he chose to require a bloody sacrifice instead - where the person being tortured was his own child. Nasty.

MrDarwin · 02-24-2003, 06:42 AM

Why oh why do Christians find simple direct questions like this so hard to answer? On the off-chance that Magus55 simply overlooked them and isn't willfully ignoring them (or heaven forbid is incapable of answering them, simple as they are), here they are again:

Quote:

Don't make me laugh. The Bible is full of inaccuracies and illogic.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55

Care to show me an example from the Bible? And you just saying "because God created a 15 billion year old universe in 6 days" doesn't count.

Here we go again. Ah well, here's one example, from Deuteronomy 21: 18-21:

Quote:

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.

Oh yes, be very afraid. Because doesn't that contradict one of the commandments, "thou shalt not kill"? Magus55, which of these verses will you obey when the time comes that your son disobeys you?

And for another example, would you care to tell us what Judas did with the money he received for betraying Jesus, and how Judas died?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-23-2003, 09:04 PM	#72
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	Now hold on. First you say "he would have never sacrifice his son to save you" and then you say "God wasn't the one" and "its our fault not Gods". So which is it? Did he sacrifice his son or was it our fault? Or will you try to say that it's our fault he had to sacrifice his son? But we didn't ask him to, did we? So how does that make it our fault?

02-23-2003, 09:37 PM	#73
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 Our disobeying God is what killed Jesus - its our fault not Gods. So God didn't actually require that Jesus die? He never told Jesus that he wanted a blood sacrifice before people's sins would be forgiven? And that wasn't an insult - you consider humans to be good people by nature I do? Can you find the place where I said I considered this, or are you employing some Super Duper Mind Reading Powers? - yet those good people beat, tortured, spit on, and brutally executed someone who was only trying to promote peace and love. This would be the same person who said, "I come to bring not peace, but a sword"?

02-23-2003, 10:58 PM	#75
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Oriecat - because humans decided to disobey God, we fell from grace. Our fault - we are sinful and no longer good with God. Because we chose to disobey God, we set ourselves up for eternal death ( Hell). But since God loves us - he gave us another chance to get back into his good standings by coming to earth in human form and paying the penalty for all our sins - since God is perfect, Jesus' blood had the power to cleanse the sins of all who believe in him. ( in the OT - lambs were sacrificed for sins before Jesus - but since Jesus was the perfect lamb ( sacrifice) - he covered ALL sins past present and future. So its our fault we fell from God, but God wouldn't allow us to perish without a way out. lpetrich - Jesus was both fully God and fully human. He was completely flesh, born of a woman - but he was perfect and sinless. Jesus was God coming down to Earth and becoming a man to be on our level. So he felt the pain just as bad as you would if it happened to you. His body responds to pain just like ours, it hurts alot. And yes he could have jumped off the cross. But he knew he was gonna be sacrificed - the whole reason God came to earth in human form was to pay the price for our sins and become the perfect sacrifice for all that believe in him. If he jumped off the cross - we would still have no way to escape Hell.

02-23-2003, 11:49 PM	#77
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	Tell me something I haven't heard before! You completely ignored my questions. The remark you made was that it was our fault jesus died, not that it is our fault we fell from God. They are separate issues.

02-24-2003, 12:48 AM	#78
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Sorry i misread your question then. No its not Gods fault we fell from him - he didn't force us to disobey - we chose to disobey him.

02-24-2003, 02:15 AM	#79
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 Sorry i misread your question then. No its not Gods fault we fell from him - he didn't force us to disobey - we chose to disobey him. And he could have chosen to simply forgive us. Instead, he chose to require a bloody sacrifice instead - where the person being tortured was his own child. Nasty.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.