Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grad Student Humanist · 03-03-2003, 10:54 AM

What I find most interesting is how Bush is made the focus of all of this righteous anger when in reality the people who are to blame are the people who voted for him and continue to support him.

Let's face it, if the vast majority of the people in this country weren't religionists then Bush's religious trappings would hurt him. He'd be considered a fool who still believes in ancient superstitions. But as it is, he's only telling people what they want to hear and thus he's considered a hero and a man of morals and integrity.

Someone mentioned that Bush would be laughed out of poiltics if this were happening in Australia. I agree, and you can add dozens of other countries to that list. However, as long as the majority of Americans are as deluded by religion as the President, then we'll get more of the same.

Bush isn't the cause of the problem, he's merely a symptom. Even if he were to be thrown out of office in November of 2004 (which I doubt willhappen) it would change nothing. I don't see very many Democrats around these days who are distancing themselves from religion. Hell, the Democratic frontrunner for President next time around wears his religion on his sleeve.

The only way the situation will change is when the American people change and that's also not happening any time soon.

DarkBronzePlant · 03-03-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hypernovean
Anyone else notice how the wording of the poll... ("No. What's wrong with bringing morality to the White House?")...

I saw the same thing and thought, "Nothing; I can't wait 'til we do it!"

03-03-2003, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
I don't see very many Democrats around these days who are distancing themselves from religion. Hell, the Democratic frontrunner for President next time around wears his religion on his sleeve.

This is true. If Lieberman wins there will probably be even more religious madness in the White House. Not to mention the fact that he refuses to ride in a car, use a telephone, or touch a light switch etc. on the "holy day."

Ojuice5001 · 03-03-2003, 02:51 PM

Yahweh and Allah both seem to want this war. Why can't atheists see the hand of the gods in these events? There must be a pair of emotional gods behind this irrational war.

sandlewood · 03-03-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Would Iraq be a �just war� in Christian terms, as laid out by Augustine in the fourth century and amplified by Aquinas, Luther and others? Bush has satisfied himself that it would be�indeed, it seems he did so many months ago. But he didn�t do it by combing through texts or presiding over a disputation. He decided that Saddam was evil, and everything flowed from that.

By the way, anyone happen to catch that TV movie Salem Witch Trials last night?

SecularFuture · 03-04-2003, 01:17 AM

The following are quotes from George W. Bush, from an
MSNBC report entitled "Bush and God" By Howard Fineman
http://www.msnbc.com/news/878520.asp?0cl=cR

"An angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm."

Context: The whirlwind symbolizes a medium for the voice of God in the Books of Job and Ezekiel.

>

"Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them."

>

"We are in a conflict between good and evil , and America will call evil by its name."

Context: Bush's references to "good" and "evil," on the upswing since 9-11, imply the Biblical clash between Christ and Satan.

>

"And the light shines in the darkness. And the darkness will not overcome it."

Context: A reference from the Book of John (appropriated from the Hebrew Scriptures) to the coming of Christ.

>

�The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity."

Context: This statement is not found in Scripture, but harks back to the writings of French political philosopher Alexis de Tocqueville. It raised a red flag for supporters of separation of church and state.

>

"The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth; yet we can pray that all are safely home."

Context: The words "safely home" are commonly used in homilies delivered at Christian funerals to mean that those who've died are now with Jesus.

>

"There's power, wonder-working power, in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people."

Context: "Power, wonder-working power" is a direct quote from one of the oldest evangelical gospel songs.

The Naked Mage · 03-06-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evangelion:

If this man was an Australian politician he would be laughed out of Parliament and beaten savagely in public.

Promise?

SLD · 03-06-2003, 09:12 PM

Well, you know there is some scary shit going on. But . . .

Let's not get too discouraged here, guys. What's the fastest growing religious belief in America? That's right: non-religion. When you combine atheists, agnostics, deists and others who simply do not accept the premises of organized religion, we have more than doubled in number in the last decade and we continue to grow. I think a lot of what we are seeing is in many ways a sort of death knell of fundamentalist Christianity. It's still powerful, and able to flex its muscle but it is growing desparate and lashing out. Even among believers, fundamentalism is shrinking over the years and is significantly less than what it was several decades ago.

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I think that things may get a little worse for a while, but then incredibly better. I've said before, that the best thing we can hope for is to let the Theocrats try to establish their religion on the state - nothing would destroy it faster.

SLDER

Evangelion · 03-07-2003, 10:35 AM

TNM -

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Evangelion:

If this man was an Australian politician he would be laughed out of Parliament and beaten savagely in public.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Promise?

I'd do my personal best.

kempe · 03-07-2003, 07:14 PM

Hey, don't blame me! I voted with the majority.

Yes, he's scary. The doG on his side sh-t only magnifies the problem. Personally, I'd much rather have someone running the show who takes personal responsiblity for their moral decisions, rather than crediting some guy on a cloud. I shudder to think what the world would be like if there really was a supreme being as bloodthirsty as George II would have it.

03-04-2003, 01:17 AM	#16
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	G.W. Bush: A Shameless Promoter of Christianity! The following are quotes from George W. Bush, from an MSNBC report entitled "Bush and God" By Howard Fineman http://www.msnbc.com/news/878520.asp?0cl=cR "An angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm." Context: The whirlwind symbolizes a medium for the voice of God in the Books of Job and Ezekiel. > "Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them." > "We are in a conflict between good and evil , and America will call evil by its name." Context: Bush's references to "good" and "evil," on the upswing since 9-11, imply the Biblical clash between Christ and Satan. > "And the light shines in the darkness. And the darkness will not overcome it." Context: A reference from the Book of John (appropriated from the Hebrew Scriptures) to the coming of Christ. > �The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." Context: This statement is not found in Scripture, but harks back to the writings of French political philosopher Alexis de Tocqueville. It raised a red flag for supporters of separation of church and state. > "The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth; yet we can pray that all are safely home." Context: The words "safely home" are commonly used in homilies delivered at Christian funerals to mean that those who've died are now with Jesus. > "There's power, wonder-working power, in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people." Context: "Power, wonder-working power" is a direct quote from one of the oldest evangelical gospel songs.

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03-03-2003, 10:54 AM	#11
Grad Student Humanist Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melrose, MA Posts: 961	What I find most interesting is how Bush is made the focus of all of this righteous anger when in reality the people who are to blame are the people who voted for him and continue to support him. Let's face it, if the vast majority of the people in this country weren't religionists then Bush's religious trappings would hurt him. He'd be considered a fool who still believes in ancient superstitions. But as it is, he's only telling people what they want to hear and thus he's considered a hero and a man of morals and integrity. Someone mentioned that Bush would be laughed out of poiltics if this were happening in Australia. I agree, and you can add dozens of other countries to that list. However, as long as the majority of Americans are as deluded by religion as the President, then we'll get more of the same. Bush isn't the cause of the problem, he's merely a symptom. Even if he were to be thrown out of office in November of 2004 (which I doubt willhappen) it would change nothing. I don't see very many Democrats around these days who are distancing themselves from religion. Hell, the Democratic frontrunner for President next time around wears his religion on his sleeve. The only way the situation will change is when the American people change and that's also not happening any time soon.

03-03-2003, 02:51 PM	#14
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Yahweh and Allah both seem to want this war. Why can't atheists see the hand of the gods in these events? There must be a pair of emotional gods behind this irrational war.

03-06-2003, 09:12 PM	#18
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Well, you know there is some scary shit going on. But . . . Let's not get too discouraged here, guys. What's the fastest growing religious belief in America? That's right: non-religion. When you combine atheists, agnostics, deists and others who simply do not accept the premises of organized religion, we have more than doubled in number in the last decade and we continue to grow. I think a lot of what we are seeing is in many ways a sort of death knell of fundamentalist Christianity. It's still powerful, and able to flex its muscle but it is growing desparate and lashing out. Even among believers, fundamentalism is shrinking over the years and is significantly less than what it was several decades ago. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I think that things may get a little worse for a while, but then incredibly better. I've said before, that the best thing we can hope for is to let the Theocrats try to establish their religion on the state - nothing would destroy it faster. SLDER

03-07-2003, 07:14 PM	#20
kempe Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 12	Hey, don't blame me! I voted with the majority. Yes, he's scary. The doG on his side sh-t only magnifies the problem. Personally, I'd much rather have someone running the show who takes personal responsiblity for their moral decisions, rather than crediting some guy on a cloud. I shudder to think what the world would be like if there really was a supreme being as bloodthirsty as George II would have it.

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