Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 12-16-2002, 07:33 AM

I was poking around pubmed this morning and found some interesting articles regarding why humans may 'believe' or sense religious experiences.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=113016 63&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Spiritual thoughts, coping and 'sense of coherence' in brain tumour patients and their spouses.</a>

Quote:

When a person is diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, existential questions are easily triggered. The aims of this study were to explore to what extent brain tumour patients and their next of kin were able to cope, understand and create meaning in their situation, to explore whether spirituality could be supportive and to analyse whether these concepts are related to Antonovsky's concept of sense of coherence. Using a purposive sampling technique, 20 patients and 16 of their next of kin took part in tape-recorded interviews. A content and context analysis was performed using a hermeneutic approach. We found that comprehensibility was to a large extent constructed by the patient's own thoughts and theories, despite an insecure situation. Manageability was achieved by active information-seeking strategies, by social support and by coping, including positive reinterpretation of the situation. Meaningfulness was central for quality of life and was created by close relations and faith, as well as by work. A crucial factor was whether the person had a 'fighting spirit' that motivated him or her to go on. As only three patients were believers, trust in God had generally been replaced by a belief and confidence in oneself, in science, in positive thinking and by closeness to nature. Sense of coherence as a concept can explain how exposed persons handle their situation. In its construction, sence of coherence integrates essential parts of the stress/coping model (comprehensibility, manageability) and of spirituality (meaning).

Boid was added by me. Although this is a small study, it showed that friends, family, and self-confidence are either just as important or more important than religious beliefs in maintaining our mental health, and in these cases, could exist without religion entirely.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=112443 78&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Lateralized direct and indirect semantic priming effects in subjects with paranormal experiences and beliefs.</a>

Quote:

The present investigation tested the hypothesis that, as an aspect of schizotypal thinking, the formation of paranormal beliefs was related to spreading activation characteristics within semantic networks. From a larger student population (n = 117) prescreened for paranormal belief, 12 strong believers and 12 strong disbelievers (all women) were invited for a lateralized semantic priming task with directly and indirectly related prime-target pairs. Believers showed stronger indirect (but not direct) semantic priming effects than disbelievers after left (but not right) visual field stimulation, indicating faster appreciation of distant semantic relations specifically by the right hemisphere, reportedly specialized in coarse rather than focused semantic processing. These results are discussed in the light of recent findings in schizophrenic patients with thought disorders. They suggest that a disinhibition with semantic networks may underlie the formation of paranormal belief. The potential usefulness of work with healthy subjects for neuropsychiatric research is stressed.

A study done on 24 students indicated that the brain activitiy of paranormal believers was slightly different than non-believers.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=647304 3&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">People who report religious experiences may also display enhanced temporal-lobe signs.</a>

Quote:

Religious and god-related experiences have been hypothesized to be a portion of the continuum of phenomena that are generated by endogenous, transient electrical stimulation within deep structures of the temporal lobe. According to this hypothesis, normal people, without psychiatric history, who report intense religious experiences should also demonstrate a wide range of temporal lobe-related private behaviors. To test this prediction, a self-report inventory that contained 140 temporal-lobe-relevant information, opinion-belief, and sampled MMPI statements was administered to two separate groups (n = 108; n = 41) of male and female first-year university students. In Study I, subjects who had reported religious experiences, particularly those who did not attend church regularly, scored significantly higher on a variety of statement clusters (n = 7 to 14 items) that contained temporal-lobe symptomology relative to groups who did not report religious experiences and did not attend church regularly. In Study II subjects, regardless of church attendance, who reported religious experiences scored significantly higher on the temporal-lobe clusters. People who reported religious experiences were more likely to have kept a dairy and to enjoy poetry reading or writing. However, religious experiments and churchgoers did not score higher (in either experiment) on clusters that contained mundane psychological or proprioceptive statements, descriptions of odd sensations, or modified portions of the Lie scale from the MMPI.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=832160 8&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Vectorial cerebral hemisphericity as differential sources for the sensed presence, mystical experiences and religious conversions.</a>

Quote:

Multiple variants of the sensed presence often precede mystical and religious experiences that are frequently followed by sudden, permanent changes in self-concept. The model of vectorial hemisphericity assumes that the relative metabolic activity of synaptic patterns between the cerebral hemispheres at the time of transient interhemispheric intercalation determines the affect, content, and type of experience. Depending upon the relative activity of the two hemispheres, intrusions of the right hemispheric equivalent of the left hemispheric (and linguistic) sense of self generate experimental phenomena that include "evil entities," gods, out-of-body experiences, and alterations in space-time. Conditions that facilitate interhemispheric intercalation and the generation of these experiences are discussed.

<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=666480 2&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">Religious and mystical experiences as artifacts of temporal lobe function: a general hypothesis.</a>

Quote:

Mystical and religious experiences are hypothesized to be evoked by transient, electrical microseizures within deep structures of the temporal lobe. Although experiential details are affected by context and reinforcement history, basic themes reflect the inclusion of different amygdaloid-hippocampal structures and adjacent cortices. Whereas the unusual electrical coherence allows access to infantile memories of parents, a source of good expectations, specific stimulation evokes out-of-body experiences, space-time distortions, intense meaningfulness, and dreamy scenes. The species-specific similarities in temporal lobe properties enhance the homogeneity of cross-cultural experiences. They exist along a continuum that ranges from "early morning highs" to recurrent bouts of conversion and dominating religiosity. Predisposing factors include any biochemical or genetic factors that produce temporal lobe lability. A variety of precipitating stimuli provoke these experiences, but personal (life) crises and death bed conditions are optimal. These temporal lobe microseizures can be learned as responses to existential trauma because stimulation is of powerful intrinsic reward regions and reduction of death anxiety occurs. The implications of these transients as potent modifiers of human behavior are considered.

scigirl

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-16-2002, 07:47 AM

Wouldn't that seem to indicate that belief isn't necessarily a choice? Theists are theists because their brain is made that way?

It would be ironic to be suddenly able to compare theism with homosexuality on the "not a choice/was born that way" level.

Pseudonymph · 12-16-2002, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Living Dead Chipmunk:
<strong>It would be ironic to be suddenly able to compare theism with homosexuality on the "not a choice/was born that way" level.

</strong>

Fascinating...I believe that may deserve a thread all on it's own. I did try to touch on some of this in my thread

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001176&p=" target="_blank">Can a believer be a freethinker?</a>

But I'm thinking I may start another thread along those lines...unless of course someone better spoken than I would like to. (and oh how many of you there are

)

Gurdur · 12-16-2002, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Living Dead Chipmunk:

Wouldn't that seem to indicate that belief isn't necessarily a choice?

No. Whatever leads you to that conclusion ?

Quote:

Theists are theists because their brain is made that way?

Nonsense. Do you imagine theism came into the world fully formed ?

You've just tried an argument that implies that; how would you explain the development of theism from polytheism and vague pantheism ?

Quote:

It would be ironic to be suddenly able to compare theism with homosexuality on the "not a choice/was born that way" level.

And it would have propaganda/trolling value only. No good.

scigirl · 12-16-2002, 10:37 AM

No I think Living Dead Chipmunk does have a valid point and question. I also think the answer is 'yes or no depending on what aspect of theism you are talking about.'

I for example did not choose to have a skeptical mind. I have one because of a combination of upbringing/genetics/other stuff. I do, however, choose what I do with that mind (like, participating in this forum although sometimes I would like to blame that decision on my genes too! Ha ha).

I think of our ability to believe in things as a spectrum. There are people who are suffering from serious mental defects and it is indeed not their fault that they have auditory or visual hallucinations.

So perhaps what we are allowed to believe/feel/interpret about our world is in some ways dictated by our biology. Certainly we all agree that some people have a better sense of smell than others, which is entirely dictated by their biology. Why not religious "sense," i.e. the ability to falsely link temporal and spacial events? I don't mean any specific belief, I mean the ability to accept a specific belief. The brain gives us the ability, via the 'coincidence detecting' NMDA receptors and other quirks of our brain, to link up sequential events. Society fills in what those coincidences are - whether it's creationism or voo doo. Society and biology in this case form a positive feedback loop, "wiring" these beliefs into our brains at a young age unfortunately. It is possible to break the cycle however, since our brains are plastic and we can 'strengthen' the logical synapses and weaken the faulty ones.

Why are humans so predisposed to believe things that contradict our senses? I find it hard to accept that biology has nothing to do with it.

I can think of evolutionary reasons that we would be 'wired' to accept illogical beliefs over logical ones - blind acceptance of our family is one. It's much easier to care for your family if you (falsely) believe that they are more special and more deserving of your care than say a complete stranger. Children who blindly followed their parents orders probably got in less accidents, hence 'appeal to authority' somehow ended up getting into our brain sequence. As we progressed as a society, these types of connections were allowed to become more complex. And if you couple these types of neural circuits with our phenomenal ability to seek out patterns, you can see how a society would start, say, associating good fortune with the patterns of the moon.

I think these studies will have profound effects on how we deal with religious and paranormal beliefs.

Gurdur (and others) - I am especially interested to hear your thoughts on the implications of these studies, specifically the question of, do we "choose" our beliefs wheras we do not choose, say, to be aware of our limb position. I think Living Dead Chipmunk's question is an interesting one with the answer being much more complex than "no, whatever leads you to that conclusion?"

Thanks in advance for your input...

scigirl

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-16-2002, 11:22 AM

I'm going to make ONE shot at this, and if I can't get anything more than appeals to ridicule, I'm not going any further. I'm sick, the last thing I need is more stress.

Gurdur:

Quote:

No. Whatever leads you to that conclusion?

Umm.. the evidence that theists' brains are physically different from nontheists' brains? Can you chose to change the way your brain functions?

Quote:

Nonsense. Do you imagine theism came into the world fully formed

I fail to see what that has to do with anything, but yes, it did. Ancient man believed in spirits and gods all over the place, and nobody knows where that tendency came from.

Quote:

how would you explain the development of theism from polytheism and vague pantheism?

Why would I have to? They're all forms of theism. That is to say, they're all a belief in some sort of super-human entity that created the world. It really just shows that humans will go to great lengths to create a theist fantasy, even if left to their own devices (rather than indoctrinated).

Quote:

And it would have propaganda/trolling value only. No good.

I don't suppose, in light of the OP, you can back that opinion up?

**

Everyone else: A thought about this topic occured to me while I was running errands at lunch... since there are many more believers than non-believers in the world, wouldn't these studies indicate that non-believers' brains are functioning outside of human norms, IOW not working properly? Is there something wrong with my head that makes me not able to believe wholeheartedly in God?

scigirl · 12-16-2002, 11:30 AM

Quote:

I'm going to make ONE shot at this, and if I can't get anything more than appeals to ridicule, I'm not going any further. I'm sick, the last thing I need is more stress.

Maybe you didn't read all the posts...

scigirl

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-16-2002, 11:31 AM

scigirl: I meant to Gurdur. I have yet to see a discussion with him that doesn't involve straw men and much eye-rolling.

Gurdur · 12-16-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Living Dead Chipmunk:

I'm going to make ONE shot at this, and if I can't get anything more than appeals to ridicule, I'm not going any further. I'm sick, the last thing I need is more stress.

Hardly. I've already given you one fact as to why your theory won't work --- that is, the development of theism from null disproves that brains are somehow "made" for theism.

If you wish to try mischaracterizing that as an appeal to ridicule, that is of course blatantly untrue.
As for your appeal for sympathy, perhaps if you are that "sick", you should concentrate on getting well rather than indulging in debates here.

Quote:

Umm.. the evidence that theists' brains are physically different from nontheists' brains? Can you chose to change the way your brain functions?

You misinterpret greatly the evidence. Please point to just how a theist's brain is supposed to be different to an atheist's - do not try neuroppsychological states of mysticism as evidence, since you don't need theism for that.

Quote:

Gurdur: Nonsense. Do you imagine theism came into the world fully formed ?

Living Dead Chipmunk:
I fail to see what that has to do with anything, but yes, it did. Ancient man believed in spirits and gods all over the place, and nobody knows where that tendency came from.

LOL. You confuse theism with pantheism - the two are very far from the same.
Furthermore, you make a completely unsupported assertion.
Modern humanity evolved roughly 270,000 to 150,000 years ago.
Do you wish to claim that at that very point of evolution - or before it , humans believed in "spirits" ?

Quote:

Gurdur:
how would you explain the development of theism from polytheism and vague pantheism?

Living Dead Chipmunk:
Why would I have to?

Because the facts destroy your theory.

Quote:

They're all forms of theism.

Completely wrong.

Quote:

That is to say, they're all a belief in some sort of super-human entity that created the world.

Completely wrong. There are forms both of pantheism and even of theism without Creators.

It really just shows that humans will go to great lengths to create a theist fantasy, even if left to their own devices (rather than indoctrinated).

Quote:

Gurdur:
And it would have propaganda/trolling value only. No good.

Living Dead Chipmunk:
I don't suppose, in light of the OP, you can back that opinion up?

Just did.

Quote:

Everyone else: A thought about this topic occured to me while I was running errands at lunch... since there are many more believers than non-believers in the world, wouldn't these studies indicate that non-believers' brains are functioning outside of human norms, IOW not working properly? Is there something wrong with my head that makes me not able to believe wholeheartedly in God?

Wrong.

An atheists' brain does not function differently from a theist's brain, with the possible exception of the mystical experience - which even atheists can have (e.g. Theryvaada Buddhism)

Quote:

Originally posted by Living Dead Chipmunk:

scigirl: I meant to Gurdur. I have yet to see a discussion with him that doesn't involve straw men and much eye-rolling.

Stick to the argument and not the ad-hom's.

____________

Edited only for spelling.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-16-2002, 11:50 AM

Gurdur: Did you even read the OP?

From the OP:

Quote:

Mystical and religious experiences are hypothesized to be evoked by transient, electrical microseizures within deep structures of the temporal lobe. Although experiential details are affected by context and reinforcement history, basic themes reflect the inclusion of different amygdaloid- hippocampal structures and adjacent cortices. Whereas the unusual electrical coherence allows access to infantile memories of parents, a source of good expectations, specific stimulation evokes out-of-body experiences, space-time distortions, intense meaningfulness, and dreamy scenes. The species-specific similarities in temporal lobe properties enhance the homogeneity of cross-cultural experiences. They exist along a continuum that ranges from "early morning highs" to recurrent bouts of conversion and dominating religiosity. Predisposing factors include any biochemical or genetic factors that produce temporal lobe lability. A variety of precipitating stimuli provoke these experiences, but personal (life) crises and death bed conditions are optimal. These temporal lobe microseizures can be learned as responses to existential trauma because stimulation is of powerful intrinsic reward regions and reduction of death anxiety occurs. The implications of these transients as potent modifiers of human behavior are considered.

Before you ask "what evidence?" again (with an overabundance of fake LOL's), please read the studies sited at the top of this thread. Thank you.

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12-16-2002, 07:47 AM	#2
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	Wouldn't that seem to indicate that belief isn't necessarily a choice? Theists are theists because their brain is made that way? It would be ironic to be suddenly able to compare theism with homosexuality on the "not a choice/was born that way" level.

12-16-2002, 10:37 AM	#5
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	No I think Living Dead Chipmunk does have a valid point and question. I also think the answer is 'yes or no depending on what aspect of theism you are talking about.' I for example did not choose to have a skeptical mind. I have one because of a combination of upbringing/genetics/other stuff. I do, however, choose what I do with that mind (like, participating in this forum although sometimes I would like to blame that decision on my genes too! Ha ha). I think of our ability to believe in things as a spectrum. There are people who are suffering from serious mental defects and it is indeed not their fault that they have auditory or visual hallucinations. So perhaps what we are allowed to believe/feel/interpret about our world is in some ways dictated by our biology. Certainly we all agree that some people have a better sense of smell than others, which is entirely dictated by their biology. Why not religious "sense," i.e. the ability to falsely link temporal and spacial events? I don't mean any specific belief, I mean the ability to accept a specific belief. The brain gives us the ability, via the 'coincidence detecting' NMDA receptors and other quirks of our brain, to link up sequential events. Society fills in what those coincidences are - whether it's creationism or voo doo. Society and biology in this case form a positive feedback loop, "wiring" these beliefs into our brains at a young age unfortunately. It is possible to break the cycle however, since our brains are plastic and we can 'strengthen' the logical synapses and weaken the faulty ones. Why are humans so predisposed to believe things that contradict our senses? I find it hard to accept that biology has nothing to do with it. I can think of evolutionary reasons that we would be 'wired' to accept illogical beliefs over logical ones - blind acceptance of our family is one. It's much easier to care for your family if you (falsely) believe that they are more special and more deserving of your care than say a complete stranger. Children who blindly followed their parents orders probably got in less accidents, hence 'appeal to authority' somehow ended up getting into our brain sequence. As we progressed as a society, these types of connections were allowed to become more complex. And if you couple these types of neural circuits with our phenomenal ability to seek out patterns, you can see how a society would start, say, associating good fortune with the patterns of the moon. I think these studies will have profound effects on how we deal with religious and paranormal beliefs. Gurdur (and others) - I am especially interested to hear your thoughts on the implications of these studies, specifically the question of, do we "choose" our beliefs wheras we do not choose, say, to be aware of our limb position. I think Living Dead Chipmunk's question is an interesting one with the answer being much more complex than "no, whatever leads you to that conclusion?" Thanks in advance for your input... scigirl

12-16-2002, 11:31 AM	#8
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	scigirl: I meant to Gurdur. I have yet to see a discussion with him that doesn't involve straw men and much eye-rolling.

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