christ-on-a-stick

Interesting. Can you explain why, then, the Lord looked upon Lot as "righteous" after he turned his daughters out to be raped by the men of the city???

the_cave

Absolutely--no biblical scholar or knowledgeable Christian or Jew would disupte that. Now, i should note there appear to be two different definitions of property we are talking about--the OT distinguishes female slaves as well--who were in fact property. Wives were not seen as such, but it certainly wasn't the model of marriage--or any relationship--we would honor today, so I'm quite willing to call it "slavery" in a metaphorical sense. And it's true, it was a moral code based on such assumptions. Deflowering a virgin was also a crime against the virgin--who then became unmarriageable. So forcing the two to marry was seen as a kind of justice to the woman. Bizarre, I know, but that's the context. The Torah was an establishment of order--so you can imagine what things might have been like before! If it was not a sudden leap to modern human rights, it certainly isn't unique in that! Only fundamentalist literalist Protestants and ultra-Orthodox Jews (and not even them, really) would ever suggest that the OT was a) a literal statement of the will of God, and b) more than an interim ethic. You might claim that well, if God's so great, why didn't he just give us modern human rights? To which any modern Christian (or Jew) would reply, because the Torah is an interpretation of divine command. (To oversimplify, perhaps I could explain that the believer sort of believes that certain moral impuses are divinely commanded. The atheist does not believe that--but she does believe that certain moral impulses have more validity than others! You should view religion as being structured similiarly.)

Literal application of the Torah would, indeed, be quite savage. Which is why no society except perhaps for the Israelites of c. 1000 BCE (? maybe? refer to the Biblical Criticism forums for questions about this) has ever tried to actually enact it (and many Jewish scholars disupte even the claim that it was ever enacted), including Second Temple Judaism and Christianity. Some societies today try to enforce Shariah law, but it's not the Torah.

Debbie T

And this giving up the daughter and concubine?

Judges
19:22
Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

19:23
And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

19:24
Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

19:25
But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

19:26
Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

19:27
And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

19:28
And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

19:29
And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

Old Man

Come on now. He was frightened he was going to be put to death, and concerned for the wellbeing of his guests. There was no police force in those days where you could get the would be rapists arrested.

It was hardly a premeditated action, even if it displays an inordinate amount of cowardice on Lot's part.

Same picture. Human weakness and cowardice rather than any premeditated desire to cause one's wife (in this case) to become a prostitute.

And, more to the point, the actions of the man in this story were never commended as being "righteous" - it was just something that "happened".

christ-on-a-stick

How utterly disgusting.

He was concerned more for the wellbeing of his guests (and himself) than his own children?

I say again, disgusting.

Cowardice is much too kind a word to use for his actions.

And again, I say, digusting.

Old Man

But what is consent actually based on?

I'd be interested to see a survey of just what "consent by a woman" was actually based on today. Almost certainly related to a combination of things, including the male's ability to seduce the female, the amount of money he has (big factor), his looks, his age, whether he has appeared on TV, the car he drives (may be), and the female's libido (certainly) and general moral proclivity.

Does it ever strike you that a society has a right, even a duty, to base itself upon an entirely different set of standards?

How about consent being based upon honoring one's parent's desire for you to marry someone, or honoring the eternal laws of matrinomy (cf Tamar and Amnon). No Israelite daughter ever got married without her parent's consent or against her parent's wishes, no matter what the circumstances were.

Old Man

Ha! You have just condemned every woman who has ever had an abortion!!!

No... please don't make an excuse. That would be too hypocritical.

christ-on-a-stick

HA!!!

Um... "Ha" what???

You're going to have to a bit more specific than that Old Man. What does turning one's children out to be abused have to do with abortion?

again,

But back to the point - don't be dodging the issue my dear. I'd appreciate your responding to my post instead of merely turning around and pulling something totally unrelated and incomprehensible out of your ass.

*Hmmmm... side thought.... how the heck do you know whether or not I condemn abortion? Let's say I do. Let's say I condemn all women who have had abortions. Does that make you feel better? Now you can address how on earth Lot could be considered a "righteous man" in light of his grievously callous and disgusting behavior?

As another minor aside, it boggles my mind that Christians constantly talk about God as this "loving Father" figure. Hell, if Yahweh approved of Lot's actions (giving his daughters up to a mob of rapists)... I sure wouldn't *want* to be one of "God's children". Especially as a female!!!

Thank DOG it's a good thing that bloodthirsty perverted tyrant is merely a figment of your imagination.

Invader Tak

My great-grandmother had an arranged marriage. I'm assuming that both sets of parents approved.

He beat the crap out of her continually.

Anyway, I like having control over my own life, thank you.

What standards should we base society on? That hideous book you revere? Again, I like having control over my life, and I really don't fancy being burned at the stake, or stoned to death, or whatever hideous punishment you would like to see instituted for infractions of your "moral" "standards".

Invader Tak

What a maroon.