Freethought & Rationalism Archive

S2Focus · 01-24-2002, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquid:
I have been seriously thinking about writing a creationist book.

Why? I would dearly love to get famous and enjoy large sales, diverting money from the creationist economy into the atheist pocket. And then I would like to destroy it all by admitting it was a hoax, and present a written debunking of my own book.

Can you imagine the scandal?!

.....

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: liquid ]

Actually, most of your potential followers have such short attention spans that the scandal would blow over quickly enough for you to pump out a 2nd edition and make even more money!

As an example, I offer you one John Woodmorappe. In one of his articles (see <a href="http://www.rae.org/nihilism.html" target="_blank">http://www.rae.org/nihilism.html</a> ), he cites science teacher Jan Peczkis as an example of someone who pushes godless, atheistic evolutionary theory on impressionable students.

One major problem with Woodmorappe's argument here is that John Woodmorappe *is* Jan Peczkis. That's right -- Woodmorappe is the pseudonym under which Peczkis publishes a bunch of anti-evolution/pro-YEC articles.

When Woodmorappe was "unmasked" some time ago and his true identity was exposed on several C/E message-boards, creationists were initially taken aback. But that didn't last long -- they soon closed ranks around their hero Woodmorappe and rationalized away his deceptive antics.

To this day, Woody still has his loyal following, ever eager to fork over more money for his latest publications!

If you can break into the "creation-science" business and establish a name for yourself, you'll be able to get away with murder!

There are lots of sheep out there just begging to be sheared -- go for it!!!

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: S2Focus ]

RufusAtticus · 01-24-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-robot:


Which universities? Harvard, Berkley, UCLA, Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, Switzerland, Brown U.??? I just read a few of the schools from ICR's list. It doesn't make much sense to me to make blanket statements (sometimes sarcastic like this instance) about scientists who believe in creation when it only applies to an extremely small minority. (I don't know if you can count them on ten fingers.)

Name a single creationist who got his/her PhD in evolutionary biology. That is about the only thing that can make them an expert when dealing with evolution.

-RvFvS

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 01-24-2002, 09:18 PM

The thought crossed my mind a while back, but I'm not THAT evil.

Pandora · 01-24-2002, 11:41 PM

Here's six "Doctors" from ICR for starters... I'll find you ten if you really want, but I haven't got time right now.

"Dr." Carl Baugh, a fundamentalist Missouri Baptist minister with no scientific background, claims to be an archaeologist. He also claims to have a Ph.D. from the California Graduate School of Theology in Glendale. When a local skeptic checked with the primary organization responsible for accreditation (The Western Association of Schools and Colleges), he was informed that this "graduate school" has not been accredited.

"Dr." Richard Bliss, a member of the ICR staff, has claimed to have a D.Ed. from the University of Sarasota located in Florida. In the 1984 spring issue of "Scientific Integrity", William V. Mayer pointed out that this university has been characterized by the "Philadelphia Inquirer" as a diploma mill in a Florida motel (see Lovejoy's College Catalog). Bliss has accused evolutionary scientists of "intellectual dishonesty". He also claims to be "a recognized expert in the field of science education" and is co-author of a "two-model" book that is being pushed for use in the public school system.

"Dr." Clifford Burdick of the CSRC (Creation Science Research Center) is a "flood" geologist who has spent forty years trying to prove that giant humans once roamed the earth and even mingled with the dinosaurs. Burdick has displayed a copy of his Ph.D. from the University of Physical Sciences (Phoenix, Arizona) in the Glen Rose Creation Evidence Museum. However, the State of Arizona Board of Regents, the University of Arizona Department of Geology, and the Arizona State Bureau of Geology and Mineral Technology have never heard of this "university."

"Dr." Kelly Segraves, director of the CSRC, listed himself as M.A. and D.Sc. on the 1975 CSRC letterhead. After having it called into question, Segraves dropped the D.Sc. in 1981 and now lists "D.R.E." in its place. Segraves has claimed that his D.Sc. is honorary from Christian University, yet a computer search indicated that the only university with that name is located in Jakarta, Indonesia. The next closest match is a Bible College called Indiana Christian University (see below). Segraves claims to have received his M.A. from Sequoia University in 1972 but Bette Chambers discovered that there is no such place. The closest name match is a Sequoia College in California, which only offers two year associate degrees and has no record of any student named Kelly Segraves. Note that "D.R.E." is a doctorate of religious education and does not qualify as a scientific degree.

"Dr." Harold S. Slusher of the ICR claims to have an honorary D.Sc. from Indiana Christian University and a Ph.D. from Columbia Pacific University. Robert J. Schadewald recently discovered that Indiana Christian University is a Bible College with only a 1/2 man graduate science department, and Columbia Pacific University is nonaccredited.

DeYoung Donald B claims to be a Professor of Astrophysics, with a B.S. from Michigan Technical University, 1966, an M.S. from Michigan Technical University, 1968, and a Ph.D. (Physics) from Iowa State University, 1972.
In American Men and Women of Science, 18th edition, 1989-90, DeYoung is also shown to have the following degree:
MDiv., Grace Theol. Sem. 1981
In addition, as of that edition, it lists him as being an Associate Professor of physics at Grace College in Winona Lake, Indiana. For research, it gives "Mossbauer effect studies of transition metal borides." There is no indication in this book of any background or expertise in astrophysics. It classifies him as "solid state science."
Furthermore, a check of the Astronomy and Astrophysics Abstracts shows no publication by a Donald DeYoung in any of the many journals that they track.
He clearly is not an astrophysicist (although he may play one at the ICR).

Thanks to <a href="http://www.holysmoke.org" target="_blank">www.holysmoke.org</a> for the above!

scarmig · 01-25-2002, 04:20 AM

Here's an idea that I'm surprised the creationists haven't latched onto already...

At least one of your chapters could "prove" that the Bible is real because the egyptian Sphinx shows water damage, which could obviously only be caused by The Flood. You could also go on to surmise that the outer white stone of the pyramids were swept away by the raging torrents of water.

Just an idea.

MOJO-JOJO · 01-25-2002, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:
Name a single creationist who got his/her PhD in evolutionary biology. That is about the only thing that can make them an expert when dealing with evolution.

-RvFvS

Probably the closest they can get is this guy, who is "endorsed" by Richard Dawkins as the "best" they can offer;

<a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_21_4.html" target="_blank">Kurt Wise</a>

..although his PhD is in Geophysics, not Evolutionary Biology.

DarkBronzePlant · 01-25-2002, 07:33 AM

I the end, don't say it was a hoax. Say that you gradually began examining more and more evidence after writing your book, and ultimately the evidence was too overwhelming and you just couldn't believe in the creationist lie anymore.

The Resistance · 01-25-2002, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scarmig:
Here's an idea that I'm surprised the creationists haven't latched onto already...

At least one of your chapters could "prove" that the Bible is real because the egyptian Sphinx shows water damage, which could obviously only be caused by The Flood. You could also go on to surmise that the outer white stone of the pyramids were swept away by the raging torrents of water.

Just an idea.

Uh, that might not be a frequent one, but I've heard Creationists use that one, possibly on this very board.

Someone7 · 01-25-2002, 08:50 PM

What you need to do is write a book that is half-YEC, half-Evil Atheist Conspiracy. Try to prove there really is a conspiracy to discredit Creationism; spin doctor all the evolution-cretinism trials (make up outright lies about them also). Harp on about Hitler's so-called atheism, Stalin and Mao (indeed communism in general) as proof of the evils of Darwinism (use Dawkins quote about not being able to be an atheist if the theory of evolution didn't exist). Since most YEC are probably extreme conservatives and believe the Rapture is coming soon, use this to your advantage also (Pat Robertson's New World Order should give you some ideas).

If you waited several years before coming out with the truth, and you wrote the book well, you could change the face of the whole YEC community. Other prominent YECs would start using any ‘good’ arguments you introduce. They would replicate your spin-doctor stories about the trials, and eat your ‘Darwinism leads to violence/war/hatred/general naughtiness’ crap up. Even if they all didn't buy your bullshit hook, line, and sinker, they would pick and choose what they wanted. Whenever you decided to come out, it would be a major blow to the credibility of all prominent YECs (that is not to say they have much anyway, of course), and to how people view all YECs, if you received enough publicity when you came out.

ex-robot · 01-25-2002, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:


Name a single creationist who got his/her PhD in evolutionary biology. That is about the only thing that can make them an expert when dealing with evolution.

-RvFvS

What for, RvFvS? Who is claiming they are experts in evolutionary biology? If that is the criteria, than many of evolution's leading spokespeople are not experts. I don't believe Scott, Dawkins, or Gould have a Ph.D. in "Evolutionary" Biology.

xr

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01-24-2002, 09:18 PM	#23
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	The thought crossed my mind a while back, but I'm not THAT evil.

01-24-2002, 11:41 PM	#24
Pandora Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: UK Posts: 367	Here's six "Doctors" from ICR for starters... I'll find you ten if you really want, but I haven't got time right now. "Dr." Carl Baugh, a fundamentalist Missouri Baptist minister with no scientific background, claims to be an archaeologist. He also claims to have a Ph.D. from the California Graduate School of Theology in Glendale. When a local skeptic checked with the primary organization responsible for accreditation (The Western Association of Schools and Colleges), he was informed that this "graduate school" has not been accredited. "Dr." Richard Bliss, a member of the ICR staff, has claimed to have a D.Ed. from the University of Sarasota located in Florida. In the 1984 spring issue of "Scientific Integrity", William V. Mayer pointed out that this university has been characterized by the "Philadelphia Inquirer" as a diploma mill in a Florida motel (see Lovejoy's College Catalog). Bliss has accused evolutionary scientists of "intellectual dishonesty". He also claims to be "a recognized expert in the field of science education" and is co-author of a "two-model" book that is being pushed for use in the public school system. "Dr." Clifford Burdick of the CSRC (Creation Science Research Center) is a "flood" geologist who has spent forty years trying to prove that giant humans once roamed the earth and even mingled with the dinosaurs. Burdick has displayed a copy of his Ph.D. from the University of Physical Sciences (Phoenix, Arizona) in the Glen Rose Creation Evidence Museum. However, the State of Arizona Board of Regents, the University of Arizona Department of Geology, and the Arizona State Bureau of Geology and Mineral Technology have never heard of this "university." "Dr." Kelly Segraves, director of the CSRC, listed himself as M.A. and D.Sc. on the 1975 CSRC letterhead. After having it called into question, Segraves dropped the D.Sc. in 1981 and now lists "D.R.E." in its place. Segraves has claimed that his D.Sc. is honorary from Christian University, yet a computer search indicated that the only university with that name is located in Jakarta, Indonesia. The next closest match is a Bible College called Indiana Christian University (see below). Segraves claims to have received his M.A. from Sequoia University in 1972 but Bette Chambers discovered that there is no such place. The closest name match is a Sequoia College in California, which only offers two year associate degrees and has no record of any student named Kelly Segraves. Note that "D.R.E." is a doctorate of religious education and does not qualify as a scientific degree. "Dr." Harold S. Slusher of the ICR claims to have an honorary D.Sc. from Indiana Christian University and a Ph.D. from Columbia Pacific University. Robert J. Schadewald recently discovered that Indiana Christian University is a Bible College with only a 1/2 man graduate science department, and Columbia Pacific University is nonaccredited. DeYoung Donald B claims to be a Professor of Astrophysics, with a B.S. from Michigan Technical University, 1966, an M.S. from Michigan Technical University, 1968, and a Ph.D. (Physics) from Iowa State University, 1972. In American Men and Women of Science, 18th edition, 1989-90, DeYoung is also shown to have the following degree: MDiv., Grace Theol. Sem. 1981 In addition, as of that edition, it lists him as being an Associate Professor of physics at Grace College in Winona Lake, Indiana. For research, it gives "Mossbauer effect studies of transition metal borides." There is no indication in this book of any background or expertise in astrophysics. It classifies him as "solid state science." Furthermore, a check of the Astronomy and Astrophysics Abstracts shows no publication by a Donald DeYoung in any of the many journals that they track. He clearly is not an astrophysicist (although he may play one at the ICR). Thanks to <a href="http://www.holysmoke.org" target="_blank">www.holysmoke.org</a> for the above!

01-25-2002, 04:20 AM	#25
scarmig Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 689	Here's an idea that I'm surprised the creationists haven't latched onto already... At least one of your chapters could "prove" that the Bible is real because the egyptian Sphinx shows water damage, which could obviously only be caused by The Flood. You could also go on to surmise that the outer white stone of the pyramids were swept away by the raging torrents of water. Just an idea.

01-25-2002, 07:33 AM	#27
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	I the end, don't say it was a hoax. Say that you gradually began examining more and more evidence after writing your book, and ultimately the evidence was too overwhelming and you just couldn't believe in the creationist lie anymore.

01-25-2002, 08:50 PM	#29
Someone7 Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 376	What you need to do is write a book that is half-YEC, half-Evil Atheist Conspiracy. Try to prove there really is a conspiracy to discredit Creationism; spin doctor all the evolution-cretinism trials (make up outright lies about them also). Harp on about Hitler's so-called atheism, Stalin and Mao (indeed communism in general) as proof of the evils of Darwinism (use Dawkins quote about not being able to be an atheist if the theory of evolution didn't exist). Since most YEC are probably extreme conservatives and believe the Rapture is coming soon, use this to your advantage also (Pat Robertson's New World Order should give you some ideas). If you waited several years before coming out with the truth, and you wrote the book well, you could change the face of the whole YEC community. Other prominent YECs would start using any ‘good’ arguments you introduce. They would replicate your spin-doctor stories about the trials, and eat your ‘Darwinism leads to violence/war/hatred/general naughtiness’ crap up. Even if they all didn't buy your bullshit hook, line, and sinker, they would pick and choose what they wanted. Whenever you decided to come out, it would be a major blow to the credibility of all prominent YECs (that is not to say they have much anyway, of course), and to how people view all YECs, if you received enough publicity when you came out.

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